E84: BONUS EPISODE: Shadow Succession Crisis

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (0:11)
Well, we've been talking about this for at least a year and a half. We have been so excited. We just teased it last episode. Now we bring you another bonus Sunstone Mormon History Podcast episode, something that we are really excited for because it's kind of groundbreaking research. And it's not often that we have groundbreaking research on the podcast that hasn't been published in the 1920s, which is where I got Sam Brannon's information. So bringing you up to date with the best stuff. I am so happy to introduce Katie Ludlow Rich, who if you follow The Exponent too, she's been a writer. How long have you been writing there?

**Katie Ludlow Rich** (0:46)
A year and a half.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (0:46)
A year and a half. A year and a half is a lucky number. So you write for The Exponent, you presented at MHA the last two years, but the most important thing is that you are an award-winning Sunstone Mormon History Podcast trivia player at Sunstone.

**Bryan Buchanan** (1:02)
We mentioned this and we teased it last time, but MHA happens every year and sometimes you'll hear about things.
There has been no more presentations, gotten more buzz than your first one last year. I mentioned this last time. I was back at the store and it wasn't there. So I was just kind of seeing what everyone was saying about it. And all of a sudden people went nuts about it. Artists partial gushed about it. I was like, if you can get artists to gush about something, you're doing something right.

**Katie Ludlow Rich** (1:30)
You two are making me blush. Stop.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (1:33)
I'm serious.
I was there the day, MHA, when you gave this. It is such an important part of Mormon history. You're excavating stories that people don't talk about. As someone who did Year of Polygamy, trying to highlight women's stories, I was so excited when I heard about this. And so I think the minute after you got out and you were hounded by the throngs of fans, I was like, hey, will you come on the podcast? And you were like, give me a minute, please.
So that minute has passed and now you are here sharing your research for us. So let's talk about, I mean, we don't, our listeners actually don't know what we're talking about yet. We've been teasing that something good is coming from Katie Ludlow Rich, but because you, it's new and emerging, you haven't really announced it other than at MHA. So let's talk about the basis for your research. What have you been investigating?

**Katie Ludlow Rich** (2:21)
My working title for this is The Shadow Succession Crisis, Challenging the Claim that Brigham Young Disbanded the Relief Society in 1845

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (2:29)
And I've actually made that claim on the Year of Polygamy podcast, as have some, countless people.

**Bryan Buchanan** (2:35)
Everyone?

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (2:35)
Yes, everyone, because that's where the research has led us so far.

**Bryan Buchanan** (2:40)
So we've got a couple key statements from Brigham Young that create this confusion. What did he say?

**Katie Ludlow Rich** (2:45)
Yeah. So there's this day, March 9th, 1845 This is the key day, nine months after the murder of Joseph Smith, that Brigham Young preached to an assembly of high priests, and then later that day to a meeting of the 70s quorum. And in both meetings, minutes record Brigham declaring his opposition to the Female Relief Society resuming meetings. And so to the high priest, he said, I say, I will curse every man that lets his wife or daughters meet again until I tell them what a Relief Society is for, to relieve us of our best men. They relieved us of Joseph and Hyrum. And then to the 70s, he said, when I want sisters or the wives of the members of this church to get up Relief Society, I will summon them to my aid. But until that time, let them stay home, and if you see females huddling together, veto the concern. And so with such deliciously incendiary language, it's no wonder that these statements have become a popular source for the now nearly ubiquitous claim inside Mormon studies that Brigham Young disbanded the Relief Society in Nauvoo.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (3:40)
Yeah. So I remember hearing this. It was wild to me as it was kind of a crises of faith to think that like, wait, Brigham Young hated women so much he got rid of Relief Society. And I like the huddling together quote. I think Laura Ulrich uses that later on in her female thing, you know, the idea of women huddling together. But the thing that I love most about this is we've been talking about the succession crisis now all summer and fall and it's all the dudes. It's this contender and this contender and this priesthood guy and this priesthood guy and they're like, where are the women in Nauvoo at this time?