E31: Before They Were Famous: John D. Lee and Bathsheba W.B. Smith

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (0:15)
Bryan, who's your favorite mass murderer who started out in Nauvoo?
Okay, well, why don't we start with John D. Lee, the man who took the fall for and certainly did his fair share of the murdering in the Mountain Meadows massacre. Don't y'all ever want to know about some of these wild characters before they became important to Mormon history? Hi, this is Lindsay Hansen Park.

**Bryan Buchanan** (0:44)
And this is Bryan Buchanan.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (0:45)
Bringing you the story of Mormonism from the shadow of the Everlasting Hills, straight out of Zion, this isn't your grandpa's Mormon history.

**Bryan Buchanan** (1:12)
This is the tale of Mormon saints and sinners from our roots until present day.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (1:18)
Gird your loins, lock your hearts, and pay your tithing, because we're bringing you the story of Mormonism in all its paradisiacal glory.

**Bryan Buchanan** (1:26)
It's the Sunstone History Podcast.
So, Lindsay and I have talked about this. We decided we want to do a couple episodes from time to time, where we'll talk about these prominent folks in later Mormon history, but we'll talk about their early church experiences, which are probably less well known.
So, you know, we know these guys from the frontier period. That's why they're famous. But they don't really show up as much in our collective consciousness when we think of earlier periods. So, guys like Jedidiah Grant, the man later known as Brigham Sledgehammer, that's a nickname to remember. So, you know, during the Mormon Reformation period, he's very famous. But what about him earlier? So, you know him as the dude with the heartwarming conference quotes like, we would not kill a man, of course, unless we killed him to save him. And we have those amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations. Those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do. Their sins are of too deep a die. Guy really liked his blood atonement.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (2:48)
He really did, and you know who else did? Bill Hickman.

**Bryan Buchanan** (2:52)
Well, yeah, but that guy was really more about doing the atoning than preaching it.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (2:56)
That's true, but because I'm a woman who loves Southern Utah Frontier Mormon History the very best, I insist we should talk today about some of Utah's famous Southerners and their experiences in Nauvoo.

**Bryan Buchanan** (3:10)
We get it, you know a lot about John D. Lee. Your medal is in the mail.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (3:13)
I do know a lot about John D. Lee. Thank you, Juanita Brooks.
Do you know he was famous for being at good, being good at sex with the ladies?
He was said to be good with his hands too. Is that saying too much? Sorry if we scandalize some of you out there. But what if I told you that I wasn't making that up, that one of the people that helped perpetuate this rumor about John D. Lee was our dear prophet, Brigham Young.

**Bryan Buchanan** (3:41)
Yeah, Brigham, he was a crude dude. I don't, people really understand just how crass he could be.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (3:47)
I'm sure you have a shirt about that.

**Bryan Buchanan** (3:50)
Boy, I hope it's in the Deseret Alphabet.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (3:54)
Yeah, Brigham was a man of the frontier. And what's weird is that when I've seen Brigham Young depicted in like Western films, they always depict him as pious, but he was not a pious man, at least not in the traditional sense. Did you see him in the show Hell on Wheels?

**Bryan Buchanan** (4:10)
I haven't, but I know from talking to you, that's the AMC one where they make up the wonky plot about Brigham.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (4:18)
Yeah, and I don't want to like give any spoilers, but it bums me out because I thought the actor that they chose was fine. He looked like him and everything, but the writing was kind of bad here. They make up this ridiculous plot that was flat and scandalous in a way that doesn't really fit. And that's what's so disappointing. It's not like there's not great stuff to go on. The real history is way better than what you could make up.
So honestly, the closest thing to Brigham Young that I've seen depicted in TV is Al Swearingen from HBO's Deadwood. Anyone that watches Deadwood knows what I'm talking about.
The only difference between Al and Brigg was that Brigham was a Massachusetts man, but he certainly didn't have Massachusetts manners, if you know what I mean. Those guys were always being crass with one another. They were swearing. They were talking about women. They were spitting tobacco. It was not a pious preacher.