E107: Brigham vs. Orson in a Quest for Power

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (0:14)
There are times, there are times when you just don't think things through. You just say something because the situation calls for it in the ramifications. Well, those are for future self to deal with.
Bryan tried his absolute best to get me to use a Seinfeld metaphor of night guy and morning guy. And you know what? Not today, Jerry.
Every parent knows this instinctively. One of the kids asks, can we go to the pool? And you answer, yeah, sure, we could probably do that. Because it's summer and KSAF rains over the house and you just got it calmed down for two minutes. And you've got a delicious sandwich working and it's just the quickest response. Now, did you really stop and think, wait, we went to the lagoon yesterday and I'm still tired. I'm pretty sure it's 105 degrees out there. No, of course not, because you want to eat your sandwich. You just gave the crowd what they wanted. Great. You're in the perfect mindset to understand what we're going to lay down today. And I'm serious, there will be a literal octagon.
Hi, this is Lindsay Hansen Park.

**Bryan Buchanan** (1:33)
And this is Bryan Buchanan.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (1:34)
Bringing you the story of Mormonism from the shadow of the Everlasting Hills, straight out of Zion, this isn't your grandpa's Mormon history.

**Bryan Buchanan** (2:01)
This is the tale of Mormon saints and sinners from our roots until present day.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (2:06)
Gird your loins, lock your hearts, and pay your tithing, because we're bringing you the story of Mormonism in all its paradisiacal glory.

**Bryan Buchanan** (2:15)
It's the Sunstone History Podcast.
Hold on there, Mrs. Ancy. No one is going to the pool yet.

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (2:43)
But we promised.

**Bryan Buchanan** (2:44)
First, we've got to switch the laundry to the dryer, and even before that, we need to hear from our friends at Signature Books.
At a meeting of the LDS Quorum of the Twelve in 1860, one of the Church's senior apostles, Heber C. Kimball, complained that, Brother Orson Pratt has withstood Joseph, and he has withstood brother Brigham many times, and he has done it tonight, and it made my blood chill. It is not for you to lead the Prophet, Kimball continued, but to be led by him. You have not the power to dictate, but to be dictated to.
Whenever the Quorum discussed Elder Pratt's controversial sermons and writings, and a streak of independent thinking, the conversation could become heated.
As documented by Gary Bergera in this surprisingly suspenseful account, Pratt's encounters with his brethren ultimately affected not only his seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve, but also had a lasting impact on LDS doctrine, policy, and organizational structure. Not infrequently, these two strong-willed, deeply religious men, Brigham Young and Orson Pratt, argued. Part of their difficulty was that they saw the world from opposing perspectives. Pratt's a rational, independent-minded stance, and Young's a more intuitive and authoritarian position.
Ironically, Orson Pratt would have the last word both because Young preceded him in death, and because several of Young's teachings and policies had proven unpopular among the other apostles. One of Young's counselors said shortly after the president's death that some of my brethren even feel that in the promulgation of doctrine, he, Young, took liberties beyond those to which he was legitimately entitled. Meanwhile, Pratt continued to hold sway with some of his colleagues. His thoughtful, if literal, interpretations of scripture would also influence such later church leaders as Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. Bergera's nuanced approach avoids caricatures in favor of the many complexities of personalities and circumstances. It becomes clear that the conflict in which these men found themselves enmeshed had no easy, foreseeable resolution. Conflict in the Quorum, Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith by Gary Bergera. Published by Signature Books. Psst. It's on sale at Benchmark Books for 15 bucks. Pick up a copy, or we might not be able to be friends.

**SPEAKER_1** (5:22)
Softening up our opponents for the Mega Powers, while you were holding the TED Team up, getting ready to seize your first opportunity to come into the ring, and start grandstanding and hot-dogging, yeah! Well, Hogan, a macho man can accept that, but what I can't accept, and can never accept...

**Lindsay Hansen Park** (5:41)
Here's the thing, kids. Tonight's going to feel like Macho Man is in one corner, and Hulk Hogan's in the other. Well, Daddy Brigham told the children something without weighing the consequences. Bricky mistake.
This will be one of those periodic tests to see how well you've been listening for teasers, because we did set this one up. However, it was a really long time ago, really long. Taylor Swift was happy in her pre-Eras tour of life, dating Joe Alwyn, they were still in love.