Dr. Dariush Mozaffarian: How the Food System Got Us Sick. Can We Fix It?

Dariush Mozaffarian (0:00)

The human brain and body is not hardwired to like ultra-processed food.

Gabrielle Lyon (0:04)

We are at a point that people are sick, and they are tired of being sick.

Dariush Mozaffarian (0:08)

The system is broken, right? We can't blame the individual and say, it's just on you to go make good choices. Most of the major food brands were bought up by the big tobacco companies.

This is really what explains not only the obesity epidemic, but why people can't keep their weight off, because they're focusing on quantity and not quality.

Gabrielle Lyon (0:27)

We're overfed, but we're undernourished.

Dariush Mozaffarian (0:29)

And beyond nutrients, there's something about modern food that's making us sick. And so, ultra-processing is not about salt or sugar or other common nutrients. It's about the processing. The conversation has changed, and we can actually potentially fix things if we follow the evidence.

Gabrielle Lyon (0:53)

Dr. Mozaffarian, welcome to the show.

Dariush Mozaffarian (0:54)

So nice to be here. Thank you so much, Gabrielle.

Gabrielle Lyon (0:56)

I've been following your career for years, and I saw you recently. We were both at an event together, and you were talking about the new dietary guidelines, where we are now, where we've come from. And I think that my first question or thought is, do you think there is hope for the American population?

Dariush Mozaffarian (1:17)

I actually am optimistic. I mean, on the one hand, we are just being crushed by the food system. It's crushing our health. It's crushing our economy. It's crushing the environment. It's causing incredible disparities. And so on the one hand, things look really bleak. Today, 14 out of 15 adults have one or more diet-related condition. Really, really shocking.

It's the number one cause of poor health and health care spending. We spend $5.5 trillion, trillion dollars on health care, which is really just hurting families, hurting businesses, hurting the federal government. We're depleting our soil and water and air with the way we grow food. So if you put those three things together, this is the biggest single challenge facing humankind. I mean, I would put it toe to toe with anything else that people say is a major challenge. And yet, with all that doom and gloom, I'm actually optimistic. I feel like we have the science to really move towards real solutions. We know the policies actually that will make a difference. And some of them may surprise you. They're maybe not the usual suspects. And most importantly, the public realizes that we just can't keep going on like this. I think now today people want food that's authentic, that's nourishing, that's good for them, that's good for the Earth.

And so I think we've passed the tipping point. I'm hopeful we've passed the tipping point.

Gabrielle Lyon (2:28)

You brought up, and your book also is called Food is Medicine.

But on one hand, food is medicine, but it sounds like it's also the poison. And you said one other thing, the food systems. How at our sickest do you think that there is a way out?

Dariush Mozaffarian (2:46)

Food is not only medicine, as you said, it can be bad medicine or good medicine, but food is also dignity and culture and taste and flavor and family. Food is so many other things, but it really is biologic information. I mean, every bite we eat has thousands and thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of molecules that interact with almost every tissue in the body, interact with our genes, with our gut bacteria.

So food really is the single leading determinant of health for most people. And yet, we've ignored it or oversimplified it for decades. And I talk about that in the book, how we got here, why we oversimplify nutrition so much and why the cutting edge science is having us realize the true solutions. And so I think the combination of science and public attention, government action, is kind of what got us into this mess in the 20th century for different goals. But now that we have that science and government attention and innovation going on, we can actually potentially fix things if we follow the evidence.

Gabrielle Lyon (3:41)

I'm also really hopeful. I think that we are at a point that people are sick and they are tired of being sick. And then we have to think, you know, I have two little kids and a lot of people out there have families. You have a family, the next generation, they need to be able to be stronger. As it relates to your personal interests, and I have always thought this to be fascinating, you are a Harvard-trained cardiologist.

Dariush Mozaffarian (4:04)