Dialogue 3: Mystical Lineage

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

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James Finley (0:08)

Greetings, I'm Jim Finley.

Kirsten Oates (0:11)

And I'm Kirsten Oates.

James Finley (0:13)

Welcome to Turning to the Mystics.

Kirsten Oates (0:23)

Welcome, everyone, to season 12 of Turning to the Mystics, where we're turning to Brother Lawrence and his teachings in practice of the presence. And I'm here with Jim to discuss his third session. Welcome, Jim.

James Finley (0:39)

Yes, as always, it's a grace to be sharing these reflections.

Kirsten Oates (0:43)

I loved this third session, where you reflected on Brother Lawrence, along with Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. And I'm looking forward to going deeper into it with you. I wanted to start with something that really struck me. You said that the awakenings the mystics talk about are very personal and unique for each of us. But we can be helped by the mystic teachers because it's subtle and hard to recognize. So this is kind of a paradox for me, Jim, where it's unique and personal and yet, you know, we can learn from others who have had their own unique and personal experience.

James Finley (1:21)

Yeah, here's the way I see it. Let's say if we fall in love with someone and we love someone very, very much, it's always unique. You know, it's our love for this love. But the thing about it is we're participating in the unity of love.

And that's why we recognize each other. We recognize love. Same way each poet is utterly unique when you read their poetry. Like, but also you get into the stream of the poetic. So it's an utterly unique experience of the universality of the path.

Kirsten Oates (1:55)

Lovely. I found this session so powerful because you put these three mystics together that were in directly the same lineage that was originated by Teresa of Avila. And so you looked at Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Brother Lawrence. And they were all members of the Discalced Carmelites that was started by Teresa of Avila in 1562

We have looked at Teresa and John in previous seasons, but I love the way these three came together as part of the same lineage.

James Finley (2:31)

And another thing, if we look at the whole Turning to the Mystics podcast, we see this like a polyphony of voices, like a chorus of voices that helps us to see that we're participating in that chorus, by the very fact we're touched by these teachings. So that's how the lineage is handed on.

Kirsten Oates (2:50)

So in this session, we're going to look at the life and the awakening and the teaching of these three mystics, beginning with Teresa, followed by John, and then Brother Lawrence. And what's interesting to note is Teresa was born in 1514, and she was the one that originated this order, the Discalced Carmelites. John of the Cross was born in 1542, and then Brother Lawrence came 100 years later, and he would have learned from these two previous mystics, just like we're learning from him now. So it's a beautiful way to see how a lineage unfolds and how each teacher builds on or draws from the teachers before them.

James Finley (3:38)

That's right. And so now it's our turn. You know, the lineage just lives in us, and it goes on and on and on that way, right?

Kirsten Oates (3:47)

So in your talk, you went over particular aspects for each of these mystics. So you looked at their life and times, the quickenings or awakenings that they experienced, how that translated into a path, and then also how they took action in the world, what the path led them to do in the world. So I thought we'd go again through those headings, and I could ask you a few questions. We can go a little deeper on each. You did it in a beautiful poetic way, so it's fun to be able to dialogue and dig a little deeper.

James Finley (4:24)

Yeah, Teresa was born in Avila, this medieval kind of walled city in Spain. And as a young woman felt called to enter the convent, the Carmelite Order, which is the large convent outside the walls of the city. There, in living this life as a nun, there were already some touches of the awakening for her. She tells this story that once the sisters in the community were all caught up in some argument over something, changing their schedule or something, and while she was in prayer, she heard a voice, your God speaking inside of her, saying, Teresa, why are you concerned about such things? Seek me. So you can kind of see these touches happening. And for her, as she lays it out in the interior castle, also, is where it really starts to happen for her is in prayer. And so she says, she imagined that the soul is like a castle made of diamond or crystal. And by the soul she means the interiority of ourself. Or even deeper is who we are as persons created by God in the image and likeness of God. And then in the soul then are mansions or dwelling places like concentric circles. And each mansion is the incremental degree to which we realize God's oneness with us in the mystery of our soul. So she says, some people don't even know they have a soul. They're all caught up in the external world. And then there's an event like love found, love lost, whatever it is. If my life has an outside, it must have an inside. So the first three mansions, incremental degrees of mansions, are really degrees of psychological, spiritual maturity. And the door that leads to each state has like three hinges on it. One is the door of experiential self-knowledge. The other is prayer, and the third is humility. She said in the third mansion, psychological, spiritual maturity, efficacious unto holiness. The fourth mansion begins. She said the thing about the third mansion, it is a gift to be grounded in psychological, spiritual maturity. She said, but the thing about third mansion is that reason has not yet been conquered by love. It's entirely too reasonable. She said also about third mansion people, they do go sailing, but they're always careful to keep the shore in view. They're always circling back around to check in with their understanding of where they are in the path. So the fourth mansion begins, and this is for the mystical awakening, it starts for her, she says she's sitting in prayer, and Alexio Divina meditation and prayer, devotional sincerity.