Defining Healthy Masculinity & How to Build It | Terry Real

**Terry Real** (0:00)
When the moment calls for fierceness, a good moroni is a killer. And they are, they're warriors. They'll kill you, don't cross them. When the moment calls for tenderness, a good moroni will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby. What makes a great moroni is knowing which moment is which.

**Andrew Huberman** (0:22)
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Terry Real. Terry Real is a therapist and considered one of the world's foremost experts on male psychology and on male-female dynamics in romantic relationships. Today we discuss what it means to be a man and the mental health crisis that men are facing nowadays. As you may have heard, rates of depression and suicide are at an all-time high in men right now. Fewer and fewer men are in romantic relationships, and many don't even have a single close friend. And for those that are in romantic relationships, the public messaging about how to show up in those relationships is very conflicted. Today we address all of these issues head on. Terry explains that to thrive in life, men have to look at relating as a skill that requires action and, yes, feelings, but also processing and communicating those feelings in a specific way and sometimes not communicating them at all. We also discuss the critical importance of fraternity, not necessarily college fraternities, but finding and belonging to a group of men that you can trust, that you can enjoy time with, that give you honest feedback, and that hold you accountable. What I appreciate so much about Terry Real is that he's willing to answer the hard questions about men and women very directly. And frankly, most therapists are not willing to do that publicly. For example, he explains that in his extensive work with couples, women and men are equally bad at relationships, but in different ways. And he offers solutions for them both if they actually want their relationship to thrive. Thanks to his honesty and providing practical tools, Terry Real provides us today with essential information for men and women of all ages. It cuts through all the generational differences that certainly exist to highlight the practical ways that men can build and support their mental health and thrive at work, school and in romantic relationships. And also just as importantly in their relationship to themselves. That is how men can build a strong self-concept, sense of agency and confidence. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Terry Real. Terry Real, welcome.

**Terry Real** (2:55)
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

**Andrew Huberman** (2:59)
What's going on with men? What's this mental health, men's crisis, suicide rates are way, way up. What's going on?

**Terry Real** (3:10)
What's going on is that the old role is shifted. The sand is shifted under our feet. And we're trying to figure out what the hell we are. And if we're not going to be what our dads and grand dads were, what are we going to be? And we're searching and we're grappling. I got to tell you, the other thing that's going on is someone in reaction to feminism and, you know, somebody said about my work, women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it. It's like, what are we supposed to do here? And there's been a backlash. There's been a resurgence in our country and around the globe of almost a celebration of some of the most difficult, unattractive aspects of traditional masculinity. And we're not sure what it means to be a man anymore, and particularly young guys are grappling.
And there are a lot of healthy examples saying, okay, here's the new territory, let me show you what it looks like.
The biggest response that I see to the confusion about what are we supposed to do here, has been regressive. Let's go back to being powerful, dominant, entitled, aggressive, and you see this at the top. You see this in politics, not just in our country, but all over the globe. Autocracy, dominance is celebrated. And it's like, we're tired of the woke, we're tired of being told that we're bad. You know, I grew up in the 60s in the height of feminists, and I consider myself a feminist family therapist.