Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis)

Jon Lovett (0:19)

Hey, everybody, welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Lovett. I just wrapped a great conversation with Michael Lewis. He is an author of the new book, Blockers Rebels in the Deep State. It's a conversation not just about what happened when DOGE tried to run roughshod over the government, but also the people inside who fought back. And there are a lot of fascinating stories and lessons and ways that we should be thinking about how not only to repair the damage, but build something better going forward. And just loved getting to talk to Michael Lewis. And I think you'll like it too. It's good to see you.

Michael Lewis (0:51)

Jon, good to see you.

Jon Lovett (0:52)

The book is enraging. Is it? Yeah.

Michael Lewis (0:54)

It was fun to write. It wasn't making me angry as I wrote it.

Jon Lovett (0:58)

Well, that seems sort of your quality.

So I want to start with Colin O'Brien. He's the head of security for what was then known as the US. Institute of Peace. What happened when DOGE tried to gain entry to that building?

Michael Lewis (1:12)

In a word, he watched and he's head of security and he's a more interesting character than that. He's like, he presents as like an NFL lineman just to look at him, but he's like a college professor in his head.

He watched DOGE basically rearrange all the guns on their side. So first, he thought the Institute of Peace, it's not really part of the executive branch. It's a congressionally created organization and it has got funding from the US government, but it owns its own building, it's a non-profit. They didn't think of themselves as actually answering to the White House in any way. So it's weird when DOGE shows up and says, we're taking this.

Jon Lovett (1:47)

It does look very small. I think people are like, oh, it's the Institute of Peace. They associated with USAID. USAID is vast compared to what the Institute of Peace is, a couple of hundred people.

Michael Lewis (1:56)

Yeah, it's a $70 million budget or something. Some of it privately raised. And Colin assumed, well, he has a private security firm that works for him.

If the federal government tries to invade his building, he can call the DC police. Before he knows it, he's actually the most successful in repelling DOGE because he lasted a few days. But before he knows it, the private security firm has been blackmailed by the Trump administration and turned, so they're working for the Trump administration. The DC police sign on, whatever diabolical thing they did with the DC police, it's unclear. But I loved it as a kind of opening of the book because he was physically trying to block them from getting into the building.

And in the end, they get the building. I mean, in the end, it's now not the US. Institute of Peace anymore, it's the Donald Trump Institute of Peace.

Jon Lovett (2:50)

So I feel like it's such a...

Obviously, this is why you start the book with it. You're very good at this. But it's a signal example, right? Because he's on solid legal ground, right? These people don't have any right. They're just DOGE.

Michael Lewis (3:01)

It's like they're coming to your house to take your house.

Jon Lovett (3:04)

Right. They're just people off the street. They're very aggressive. They act like they own the place, right? And he says, no, you can't come in.

Michael Lewis (3:10)

They're 26 years old.

Jon Lovett (3:11)

Right. They're these kids, right? No, you can't come in. Then they bring an FBI guy with them. And that person isn't really there other than to facilitate. He says, no, you can't come in.

The private security firm, the reason Trump is able to, the administration is able to get this firm to be part of their efforts to take the building is the Institute of Peace has a very small contract. State Department has a contract that's a hundred times the size, their money is at stake. So now all of a sudden, because of that contract, not for any legal reason, they're suddenly on the side of DOGE. And yet still this guy, O'Brien, he locks them in the portico of the building and he physically removes, this is a shocking story.

Michael Lewis (3:52)

The third, about the third assault, the third assault, he figures, Colin figures his only vulnerability is there is one lock on the building, actually a key will open, that he can't shut down with the press of a button on his phone. There's one key that's out there.

It's in the hands of someone who works at a private security firm.