Cutting-edge Neurotechnology with Nita Farahany in Conversation with Luisa Rodriguez on The 80,000 Hours Podcast

**Erik Torenberg** (0:00)
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**Nita Farahany** (0:45)
There was a patient who was suffering from really severe depression to the point where she described herself as being terminally ill.
And every different kind of treatment had failed for her, and finally, she agreed with her physicians to have electrodes implanted into her brain, and those electrodes were able to trace the specific neuronal firing patterns in her brain when she was experiencing the most severe symptoms of depression. And then were able to, after tracing those, every time that you would have activation of those signals, basically interrupt those signals. So think of it like a pacemaker, but for the brain, where, you know, like when a signal goes wrong, it would override it and put that new signal in. And that meant that she now has a typical range of emotions, she has been able to overcome depression, she now lives a life worth living. That's a great story. But that means we're down to the point where you could trace specific, at least with implanted electrodes, neuronal firing patterns, and then interrupt and disrupt those patterns.
Can we do the same for other kinds of thoughts?

**Nathan Labenz** (1:52)
Hello, and welcome to The Cognitive Revolution, where we interview visionary researchers, entrepreneurs, and builders working on the frontier of artificial intelligence. Each week, we'll explore their revolutionary ideas, and together we'll build a picture of how AI technology will transform work, life, and society in the coming years. I'm Nathan Labenz, joined by my co-host, Erik Torenberg. Hello, happy new year, and welcome back to The Cognitive Revolution.
Today, we're continuing our short series of holiday bonus content with an outstanding conversation about recent advances in neurotechnology from the 80,000 Hours Podcast.
In a world of so much AI hype, I periodically try to discipline my own thinking by taking a step back and asking myself, is there any way that this is all just way overblown? Is there any way that life continues to look pretty normal for decades to come?
Invariably, no matter how much I question, I end up reaching the same conclusion. Even if large language models hit a plateau at the level of GPT-4. And if you heard my recent emergency episode on state space models and the new Mamba architecture, you know that that is not at all my expectation. But let's just imagine for a moment that such a leveling off were to happen. It still seems clear to me that the parallel revolution in biotechnology, itself enabled by AI advances, sets the stage for a radically different future. So today, I'm really excited to feature this interview by 80,000 Hours Podcast host, Luisa Rodriguez, and guest, Nita Farahany. Nita is a professor of law and philosophy at Duke Law School and a leading scholar on the ethical, legal, and social implications of emerging technologies. Or, to use my own vernacular, a neuro technology scout. As you'll hear, Luisa repeatedly expresses her own astonishment that such mind-blowing technologies have remained relatively under the radar. And for what it's worth, I have often felt the same way over the last year. Going back to our episode with Tanishq Matthew Abraham, I recall telling my wife Amy that we're collectively so overwhelmed with AI advances that literal mind-reading technology, which presumably at one point would have been front page news, is now somehow barely noticed or commented upon. Yet, to the best of my understanding, everything you'll hear checks out. Neuralink, which Elon Musk said he founded so that humans can quote-unquote go along for the ride with AI, is now in clinical trials. And in the months since our episode with Tanishq, Metta has published work showing that they can now decode brain signals in real time, with much less invasive equipment.
There is a ton more to come over the next two hours, but for me it all adds up to one inescapable conclusion. For better or worse, we will live in extremely interesting times. So now, I hope you enjoy this paradigm-shifting conversation on emerging neurotech, courtesy of The 80,000 Hours Podcast, with host Luisa Rodriguez and Professor Nita Farahany.