Caleb Flynn Trial Day 4: Botner Says Caleb Was Finally WHAT?!

Tony Brueski (0:00)

You're listening to continuing coverage in the trial of Caleb Flynn from the Hidden Killers podcast and True Crime Today. Now, back to the courtroom.

Alleigha Botner (0:13)

We are going to proceed with a cross-examination of Ms. Stuchell.

Sarah Stuchell (0:18)

And at this time, Mr. Morgan, are you ready to offer any cross-examination?

SPEAKER_4 (0:23)

Yes, thank you.

Ms. Stuchell, I have a couple of questions for you this afternoon. Do you have your report from India?

Alleigha Botner (0:39)

You may.

SPEAKER_4 (0:42)

I present to you states of living, 193, 194, 195, which seem to be what we discussed. You recognize those exhibits, yes?

Alleigha Botner (0:58)

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_4 (1:00)

And those are the report and the notes that you took on the analysis that you performed in this particular case, correct?

Alleigha Botner (1:08)

Correct.

SPEAKER_4 (1:09)

So, if we can go to states exhibit 193 for a moment, which is the lab report.

It appears that there were many, many tools that were examined in this particular case. And starting on page 1 of that report, that would include items 6 through 9, correct? Correct. And I noticed that item number 7 isn't on there. Is that just an oversight or is item 7 somewhere in the...

Sarah Stuchell (1:44)

Item 7, if it's not on my report, means that it is an item of evidence that I did not examine in my examinations.

SPEAKER_4 (1:50)

Very well. So, we have item 6, 8 and 9 on page 1

We have items 11 through 28 All of those are individual tools, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (2:02)

That is correct.

SPEAKER_4 (2:03)

We also have items 29 through 51 Those are also separate tools.

Sarah Stuchell (2:11)

That is correct.

SPEAKER_4 (2:13)

And we have items 52 through 69 All of those appear to be tools as well.

Sarah Stuchell (2:20)

That is correct.

SPEAKER_4 (2:21)

And we have items on the fifth page, 70 through 88

Sarah Stuchell (2:29)

Correct.

SPEAKER_4 (2:30)

And as an example, there appear to be all kinds of different tools in here, but item number 88 are hedge trimmers.

Correct. Okay. And a number of these items were taken from the interior of the house and not just from the workbench, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (2:55)

That is correct.

SPEAKER_4 (2:56)

So you received an exhaustive list of tools and those were all individually examined, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (3:06)

That's correct.

SPEAKER_4 (3:08)

And regardless of the examination that you provide in the detailed work that you do, your analysis never covers who the person is who actually used the individual tools, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (3:24)

That is correct. That is not something that I can determine in my examinations.

SPEAKER_4 (3:36)

So, if we go to item number one, which is the door frame itself, correct? So, you got that item with you?

Sarah Stuchell (3:52)

That is incorrect. That door was submitted to the laboratory in Quantico, Virginia, and initial processing, including photographs and casts taken of those tool marks were done by Fire and Sand Tool Marks Unit personnel in Quantico, Virginia. I received the casts, but not the door itself.

SPEAKER_4 (4:07)

Got it. And so, you were able to examine the casts from item number one and item one-one, which included the pieces of trim, and item number two, which is the door knob, as well as item number three, the door jam strike plate.

Those were all analyzed. One, one-one, two, three, four, five, and fifteen. Correct?

Sarah Stuchell (4:38)

That was correct.

SPEAKER_4 (4:39)

Fifteen is the hammer, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (4:42)

Yes.

SPEAKER_4 (4:43)

And your conclusion on all of those was one of it. The end result is it was an inconclusive test result, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (4:56)

That is correct.

SPEAKER_4 (4:57)

Now, the vast majority of the tools, if not all of the tools, the worksheet, which are your notes in states exhibits 194 and 195, many of these simply don't have what I would call, or what you call, subclass characteristics, correct?

Sarah Stuchell (5:21)

That is correct.

SPEAKER_4 (5:22)

And subclass characteristics are important in the work that you do.

Sarah Stuchell (5:30)

Yes, they are important because we do not want to make an identification based on a subclass characteristic, mistaking it for an individual characteristic. Okay.

SPEAKER_4 (5:39)

And as far as... In States Unimic 194, on page 2, you appear to have notes, individual notes, on the door handle and what has also been characterized as the rose, the outside of... I'll call it the outside of the door handle.

Sarah Stuchell (6:13)

That's correct.

SPEAKER_4 (6:14)

Is that what you call it, the rose? Yes. And there's a notation on here, on the second column on the top of the page, EOMM and MOV. Tell us again what MOV is.