Building Government's Largest Civilian AI Team with DHS AI Corps' Director, Michael Boyce

**Michael Boyce** (0:00)
I'm not here from Silicon Valley to save anybody, but what I am here to do is to bring a bunch of really smart folks, both from inside and outside the federal government, into focus on AI to partner with the people who want to be partnered with. The most important thing is to listen. The most important thing to learn. These are complicated bureaucratic structures, and relationship building, all those soft skills are just as important as the hard technical skills when you're trying to make progress here. If you don't think federal government agencies are interested in leveraging AI, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. They are very interested in doing it, but they're also looking for companies with really strong expertise, and who can really get to niche services with niche perspectives. You can't actually beat the level of difficulty and challenge of the problems, because the problems aren't only technical, although there are many technical problems. They're like societal, personal politics. You're dealing with, by many definitions, the largest organization in the world, and figuring out how to navigate that is an incredibly complicated and challenging piece.

**Nathan Labenz** (1:00)
Hello, and welcome back to The Cognitive Revolution. Today, I'm excited to share my conversation with Michael Boyce, Director of the Department of Homeland Security's AI Corps, which is bringing modern AI capabilities to one of the largest departments in the United States federal government. While I've spent the last year exploring AI R&D applications and impacts throughout the private sector, how exactly the US Civil Service is approaching these technologies has been admittedly a bit of a blind spot for me. But as I learned in this conversation, there is already quite a lot going on. The DHS AI Corps, which Michael leads, is meant to become the largest civilian AI team in the government, and they're responsible for building both shared AI infrastructure and a range of special purpose applications to help the department's 22 different agencies begin to capture the benefits of modern AI. As a 10-year member of the department himself, including four years as a frontline refugee officer, two as a bureaucracy hacker at the US. Digital Service, and four more as chief of innovation and design at the US. Citizenship and Immigration Service, Michael combines a long-standing passion for technology with a deep understanding of both the incredible potential and unique constraints of bringing AI into government work. In this conversation, we discuss how the department was formed, what its IT infrastructure and AI adoption has looked like historically, how the department approaches information security and privacy now, and what all of this implies for its ability to use the best AI technology available commercially today. Overall, I was impressed by how reasonable and balanced the approach seems to be. We also get into the details of specific AI applications that Michael and his team are developing, including a training application in which officers conduct practice asylum interviews with a large language model playing the role of the asylum seeker. Finally, Michael makes the case that more AI researchers and builders should consider a career in government service, which he describes as a rewarding opportunity to work with unique datasets, tackle complex, consequential problems, and earn what I found to be a surprisingly competitive salary, all while serving the public interest. As always, if you're finding value in the show, we'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to share it with friends, write a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or just leave a comment on YouTube. Your feedback and suggestions, including for more AI leaders inside the US government, are welcome too. You can contact us via our website, cognitiverevolution.ai, or feel free to DM me on your favorite social network. Now, I hope you enjoyed this window into how one of the United States' largest federal departments is adopting AI, with Department of Homeland Security AI Corps Director, Michael Boyce. Michael Boyce, Director of the Department of Homeland Security AI Corps. Welcome to The Cognitive Revolution.

**Michael Boyce** (3:46)
Thank you. Thanks so much, Nathan. It's really, really great to be here.

**Nathan Labenz** (3:50)
I'm excited for this conversation. I'm on a general, very wide-ranging scouting mission to understand how people are developing and also applying AI in all facets of life in society. And the US federal government is honestly a bit of a blind spot for me. So I'm looking forward to learning a lot over the next hour and change and coming away with much better understanding of what's going on in the US government right now. Just for starters, I know your position is a career civil service position, and obviously we're in the midst of a presidential transition. So I wanted to just kind of get the ground rules on the table from your perspective, like what can you talk about? Can you talk about is there anything that is a no-go zone, just to make sure that I'm taking us in a direction that works well for everybody.