Bringing Extinct Species Back to Life | Dr. Beth Shapiro

Beth Shapiro (0:00)

So, our dire wolves, they have 20 edits that we picked, and we sequenced genomes from fossil dire wolves. We learned from those genomes what genetic changes made those animals bigger, more robust, light-colored in coat, and then we engineered those changes into a gray wolf genome to recreate the dire wolf.

I often get the question of, why are you thinking about bringing extinct species back to life? Why aren't you thinking about helping living species not become extinct? And the answer is, we are doing both. It is the same tools. It's the same technology. It's the same needs. And when we excite people with the idea of mammoths and dodos and thylacines, we get more engagement and enthusiasm and investment in developing the technology that we can use to stop living species from becoming extinct.

Andrew Huberman (0:52)

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Beth Shapiro.

Dr. Beth Shapiro is an evolutionary biologist. She was a professor at UC Santa Cruz and an investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute before leaving to become chief scientific officer at Colossal Biosciences. Her work at Colossal is focused on what is called de-extincting species such as the woolly mammoth, the dodo bird, and the dire wolf meaning bringing them back to life. But that entire initiative is also about species preservation more broadly and how genomics can be used to improve the global ecosystem. In this episode, we discuss what it means to use ancient DNA to bring back extinct species, which then led us to a broader discussion about genetic engineering and human health, both of which, by the way, are happening right now. So this is not just a projection into what's coming in the future. As you'll see, Dr. Beth Shapiro is truly a one-of-a-kind thinker. And today, you'll learn the science, the ethical implications, and the positive potential of using genetics to de-extinct species and using genetic selection and genetic tools to change humans. And no, Dr. Beth Shapiro is not planning to bring back dinosaurs. And today, you'll learn why. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Beth Shapiro. Dr. Beth Shapiro, welcome.

Beth Shapiro (2:37)

Thank you.

Andrew Huberman (2:38)

Longtime fan of your work.

Beth Shapiro (2:39)

Same.

Andrew Huberman (2:40)

Love animals, love stories about animals that aren't around anymore. Heard that you're going to bring back the woolly mammoths, the dodo bird, and that you might have already done something to contribute to the proliferation of the black-footed ferret.

I'm a big fan of mustelids, of which ferrets are. We're going to talk about all of that today, including the ethical implications and so on. But I have a very basic question, which is, how do you decide what a species is? Because you have a degree in zoology. I always wanted to get a degree in zoology. But a few years ago, we got this thing called DNA sequencing. We can look at ancient DNA, can look at skeletons. People have done that for a long time.

My understanding is that it's completely revised. The understanding of the relationship between different animals and the number of branches in these phylogenetic trees. So what have we learned that I think people might appreciate understanding about taxonomy and like is my dog as a bulldog, mutt, really the same as a chihuahua? Are they really the same species? Right.

Beth Shapiro (3:42)

That's a really fascinating way to put it. And I think the most important thing that most people probably don't think about is that biology doesn't care what species you are. Species is a human concept. We have this incredible proclivity to want to put things into boxes so that we can talk about them, so that we can have conversations or share stories or share memories. In order to share something, we have to know what to call it. That's one of the reasons language has been so fundamental to the evolution of our species and our social structures.

So what is a species? Probably when you learned about species in biology class when you were in middle school, you learned about Ernst Maier's biological species concept.

Andrew Huberman (4:27)

Kingdom, phylum, order, genus, species, like this kind of thing, clade, you know?