Brian and Judson hookup with Justin Elizabeth Sayre and talk aging as a queer person without role models, fleeing the US to find safety as a non-binary person, misrepresentation on the apps, and communication in open relationships

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (0:11)
Hi, friends, welcome to Dads And Daddies, a podcast about the lives and times of adult gay men in the here and now. I'm Brian Rubin-Sowers, the dad.

**Judson Morrow** (0:19)
And I am Judson Morrow, the daddy.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (0:22)
Hi, Judson.

**Judson Morrow** (0:23)
I'm so excited for our double header.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (0:25)
I know. Judson loves it when we record in the morning and have dinner plans in the evening.

**Judson Morrow** (0:32)
And yoga in between.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (0:33)
Well, I'm not a part of that.

**Judson Morrow** (0:35)
It's a little yoga sandwich. What's up, how are you?

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (0:38)
I'm good, how are you?

**Judson Morrow** (0:40)
Yeah, I'm super solid. I got some good sleep, I had a little breakfast burrito. I'm ready to rock and roll.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (0:45)
Nice. How has your weekend been?

**Judson Morrow** (0:49)
My weekend has been delightful. I have been reflecting on, I had couples therapy on Thursday, and some very important things were revealed that I would like to share.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (1:00)
Oh, yes, please.

**Judson Morrow** (1:02)
Because I've also been practicing them with you. You're like, ooh.
So, my husband very kindly and directly and correctly identified that I can be very vague and I lie by omission and I never really say how I'm feeling. And I'm secretive. And I was like, check, check, check, check, check. Like, I know all these things, right?
And the reason he was telling me is because it has, it's backfiring, right? Like, I think that I'm protecting the relationship by not sharing my crazy constantly. Right. And he's like, well, actually, it's sort of erodes trust and is giving, like, using because it's like you're so secretive. Like, I don't really know what you're up to. Like, I trust you. But also, like in the periods of time when you have been like drinking or doing drugs in the past, it's like you were also like just as quiet. And I'm like, okay, that's a great point. And by not sharing my feelings, it erodes the trust of like how he perceives my feelings about the relationship.

**Justin Elizabeth Sayre** (2:17)
Right.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (2:17)
Anytime that I'm holding something in, Toby assumes that it is about us.

**Judson Morrow** (2:24)
Right.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (2:24)
And it can be about so many different things.

**Justin Elizabeth Sayre** (2:26)
Right.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (2:27)
Right.

**Judson Morrow** (2:27)
And I think like, you know, our listeners, our regular listeners who followed us on this journey, know that I love my husband more than anything in the world. He is my best friend. He is my ride or die. You can say whatever you want to me. If you disrespect my husband, I will burn your fucking house down. Like all those things and- I've seen it happen. Yeah. I'm a cinnamon roll 95 percent of the time, and the other 5 percent of the time, I'm fucking gunpowder and you didn't realize until you struck a match. So watch the fuck out.
I appreciate that we can have these kinds of conversations in the context of therapy because it gives me the opportunity to strengthen the bond. So I'm just-

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (3:09)
I was going to say everything you described about yourself feels to me like the reason to have couples therapy.

**Judson Morrow** (3:14)
Right.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (3:14)
Because that is a safe space to express all of these things you're keeping inside.

**Judson Morrow** (3:20)
Right.
It's not that it hurt my feelings. It's not that like, oh, he's saying these things about me and that hurts my feelings. I think what made me feel bad is I was like, fuck, like that hurts my husband's feelings.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (3:35)
Right.

**Judson Morrow** (3:36)
Like my behavior is-

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (3:37)
And it hurts you to know that you are hurting him.

**Judson Morrow** (3:39)
Yeah. My behavior is indirectly, and if you're listening to this and like, God, that's so fucking complicated. Why even bother? It's like because we can get to the next level of intimacy and closeness and understanding. So-

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (3:52)
And you have so much there.

**Judson Morrow** (3:55)
Yeah.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (3:56)
It's not like you are even close to falling apart. Like it's so nice that he can-

**Judson Morrow** (4:01)
No, no, no, no.

**Brian Rubin-Sowers** (4:02)
Express this, but like, it sure maybe it sounds complicated, but it is that it's just one kind of like small aspect of this like relationship that works on so many levels.

**Judson Morrow** (4:16)
Oh, this is a little, I mean, it's more than cosmetic, it's more than aesthetic, but like it really is just like a deep polish, right? Like the foundation is all there. So I have, and I remember like after therapy, I came over here and I was like, Brian, this is what my husband just said, so I'm gonna start practicing on being honest and direct and sharing my feelings. And you were like, oh God, what did I do wrong?