Bonus: The Dark Night, Depression and Suffering

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

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James Finley (0:08)

Greetings, I'm Jim Finley.

Kirsten Oates (0:11)

And I'm Kirsten Oates.

James Finley (0:12)

Welcome to Turning to the Mystics.

Kirsten Oates (0:22)

Welcome everyone to Turning to the Mystics. We had so many wonderful questions from our audience that we decided to add in a bonus episode, focused around particular topics of suffering, depression and the dark night. And I'm thrilled to say I'm here with Jim, but also Mirabai Starr is with us, who joined us in our introductory episode and has a deep history with St. John of the Cross.

So welcome, Jim. Welcome, Mirabai.

Mirabai Starr (0:57)

Thank you, Kirsten.

Kirsten Oates (0:59)

And we had a lot of people from the audience asking us to reflect on or asking you to reflect on the difference between depression and the dark night.

And I've even heard it suggested that because depression wasn't a term back when St. John of the Cross was alive, did he just mean depression? If he was alive now, would he use the word depression instead of dark night? So I'd love to just hear your reflections on what the difference might be between depression and a dark night.

Mirabai Starr (1:36)

Hey, Jim, do you want to just start by reading John's words about it?

James Finley (1:41)

Yes, that would be lovely. I have a text of mine, I bet you had the same one in mind. Go ahead and read it.

Mirabai Starr (1:46)

Yeah, probably so. And then we, then maybe you can just jump off of that.

So this is actually my translation, which is, you know, a little different than the classic, but pretty literal.

In the Dark Night of the Soul, in Chapter 9 of Book 1, which is the Night of Sense, he says, one of the signs that this dryness indicates the passage into purification is that while the soul finds no pleasure in the things of God, she does not find consolation in any created thing either. I'm sure this is what you picked out too, Jim. Since God has placed the soul in this Dark Night to dry up and purify her sensual thirst, he no longer allows her to taste sweetness or delight in anything whatsoever. You can tell that such aridity and bitterness is probably not the outcome of some recently committed transgression or imperfection because if it were, the sensory part of the soul would be drawn to indulge in something besides divine things. When the appetite relaxes into some imperfection, the soul immediately feels inclined toward that thing, either a little or a lot, depending on how attached she has grown to it.

Another indication of the true purification is that the memory is carried constantly back to God with a depth of caring that is actually painful to the soul. She thinks that she must not be serving God, that she's backsliding because there's no sweetness left for her in divine things. It is clear that this kind of aversion is not the fruit of laziness or apathy. If it were, the soul would not care so deeply about whether or not she is being of service to God. There is a significant difference between spiritual aridity and general apathy. Apathy is informed by laziness, a weakness of spiritual will, devoid of any concern about serving God. But purifying dryness holds within itself a longing, a passionate concern and grief about not serving God.

And then there's just one little extra piece I think is relevant. He says, even though this aridity might be intensified by accompanying melancholia, which I did translate as depression, melancholia, which was kind of a generalized term for mental imbalance and all kinds of things, depression. So even though it might be accompanied by depression, it does not fail to have a purifying effect on the appetite. The soul is stripped of the distraction of all pleasures and our attention is centered on God alone. If it were merely a matter of foul humor, it would lead to nothing but disgust and the ruin of the soul's nature. She would not be burning with the desire to serve God that accompanies true purifying dryness. At the same time that this purgative aridity evaporates all sweet juices causing the sensory part of the soul to turn feeble and come crashing down, the spirit has quietly grown ready and strong.

James Finley (4:56)

What I'd like to do is I'd like to back up and speak in our language today about depression and then see where our understanding of depression relates to or touches on the quote that Mirabai just read on John of the Cross. Like how do they, what's the different language, what distinctions are we making here? So I want to start first by saying first.