Bonus: Richard Rohr on Turning to Teresa of Avila

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

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James Finley (0:08)

Greetings, I'm Jim Finley.

Kirsten Oates (0:11)

And I'm Kirsten Oates.

James Finley (0:13)

Welcome to Turning to the Mystics.

Kirsten Oates (0:23)

Welcome to season two of Turning to the Mystics, where we're turning to the 16th century Christian mystic, Saint Teresa of Avila. Last week, Jim took us to the end of her book, The Interior Castle, with a beautiful reflection on Mansion 7 And next week, I'll be joining Jim for a dialogue about Mansion 6 and 7

But today we have a special guest with us, Father Richard Rohr. Jim and I have been looking forward to this discussion with him, and so let's get started. Richard, thank you so much for joining Jim and I on our Turning to the Mystics podcast. It's really exciting to have you here.

Richard Rohr (1:05)

Well, it's sincerely my privilege to be with you two. I get to be with you in the school, but now in a podcast.

Kirsten Oates (1:15)

This is great.

So today we're talking about Teresa of Avila. And so Richard, I just wondered where and when you were first introduced to Teresa.

Richard Rohr (1:31)

You know, like most young religious, I think I heard you say this once, Jim.

I opened her, I think when I was in college at Duns Scotus, and it just seemed like gobbledygook. I mean, I'm 19 or 20 years old, I guess. I just had no real inner experience. This was still before Vatican II, where Catholicism was largely externalized religion. So I conveniently shelved her and only came back in later years.

Kirsten Oates (2:14)

Do you remember what you read first? Were you asked to read all of her?

The book of my life?

Richard Rohr (2:21)

I think it was the Vita, yeah, the life, right. And I might have ventured into the Interior Castle, but I can't say for sure.

I'm sure I would have placed myself in the Fifth Mansion.

Kirsten Oates (2:42)

Jim, was that where you were placing yourself at about the same age?

James Finley (2:46)

No, I told Merton. For me, the background was about the same age as Richard.

Richard Rohr (2:51)

Yeah, we were the same.

James Finley (2:53)

And I was at the monastery and Thomas Merton was novice master. And so under his guidance, St. John the Cross is actually the first mystic that I read. It had a very deep effect on me and he guided me in that. It was great. So then I read Teresa. And when I read Teresa, when I came in to see him for direction, I had my copy of the Interior Castle with me. And I told him, 18 years old, I said, I'm reading the Interior Castle. And I said, the way I see it, I'm in the fourth mansion.

But I said, if you think I'm only in the first, be honest with me, I can handle it.

And he said to me, he said, it's none of your damn business what mansion you're in.

Richard Rohr (3:45)

Oh, wow.

James Finley (3:45)

He said, the spiritual life should free us up from a preoccupation with ourself. It just becomes another way of being preoccupied with ourself. He said, but understood in the right way, it's extremely helpful.

That Teresa is a trustworthy, contemplative guide in the Christian tradition. And so when I started reading her, I got into her, I read her, but it never really, she never really got to me the way John of the Cross did or Eckhart. But then years later, it was just maybe 20 years ago, 15 years ago, I don't know when it was, through the invitation of Carolyn Mace, I was given an invitation to go to Avila and talk on John of the Cross, at Avila with Carolyn Mace and Avila. In preparation for that, I read her again later, and I was just struck by how beautiful her teachings were. It just is really, and then I did the online course with the CAC on Teresa. So she's near and dear to me. It's just really, she's so profound and down to earth and beautiful.

So that's my history with her. I was curious with you, when you did pick her up later, like older and wiser, do you recall what struck you at that later reading when you read her that you didn't see earlier?

Richard Rohr (5:07)

First of all, I'm going to say her readability, that what I once thought was so abstruse and gobbledygook was now striking home again and again.

Whether I was correctly understanding her, I don't know. And her concrete images, like the crystal, the castle, the butterfly, the lizards, they all just became, oh yes. I had a bit of identification, inner identification. Yeah.