Bonus: Fr. Richard Rohr on Thérèse of Lisieux

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

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James Finley (0:08)

Greetings. I'm Jim Finley.

Kirsten Oates (0:11)

And I'm Kirsten Oates.

James Finley (0:13)

Welcome to Turning to the Mystics.

Kirsten Oates (0:23)

Welcome, everyone, to season 13 of Turning to the Mystics, where we've been turning to Thérèse of Lisieux and her story of a soul.

And I'm here with Jim, and we're so delighted to be welcoming our special guest, our dear friend, Father Richard Rohr, to the podcast. We're excited to have him here because we know that Thérèse is one of his favorite and most influential mystics. But before we start, for those of you who don't know Richard, he's the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation. He's a Franciscan friar and ecumenical teacher, and bears witness to the deep wisdom of Christian mysticism and traditions of action and contemplation.

Father Richard teaches how God's grace guides us to our birthright as beings made of divine love. Richard is the author of lots of books, including The Universal Christ, The Wisdom Pattern, Just This, and one of my favorites, Falling Upward. Well, we're so thrilled to have you with us today for Turning to the Mystics. Richard, welcome.

Richard Rohr (1:34)

My privilege. Thank you. I'm one of my favorite and most important subjects, Thérèse.

Kirsten Oates (1:42)

That's why we wanted to have you on this season. We're excited to be able to learn about that. I thought we'd start with having Jim just share a little bit about how he approached Thérèse this season so we can all be on the same page with the listeners.

Richard Rohr (1:56)

I'd love to hear that. Great.

James Finley (1:58)

I shared with people that I was introduced to Thérèse at the monastery. Thomas Merton had a devotion to Thérèse. I was introduced to her. I was quite taken by her. And he also gave me a relic of her, some wits of her hair. I used to keep it pinned over my heart, under my scapular. I had to give it back when I left, but I had a devotion to her. But what struck me about her, I want to indicate three things to give you an idea of the tone. The first thing that strikes me when you read the story of a soul, is that she wrote the story of a soul under obedience by the Prioress, who was her older sister. And therefore, unlike Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, she wasn't writing giving us directions or suggestions. She was writing in a very personal, self-disclosing way.

Of her experience of herself in the presence of Jesus. So I think when we read her, it helps us sit with where we are within ourself in the presence of Jesus. It's so intimately personal. The next thing is, for a young woman, she says these stunningly insightful things. To single out two things.

One, as she says in the Story of a Soul, she says it's very rare to find people who aren't concerned about their inabilities to get past their shortcomings, to find God. Instead of placing their confidence in God who's infinitely in love with them in the midst of their shortcomings.

Richard Rohr (3:25)

Yes, yes. That's the heart of it, yes.

James Finley (3:28)

Yeah. And the next thing she said was just similar to the same thing. She's so aware of her limitations, the little way, how little she is. And so she says, I'm so little in terms of reaching the sacredness of who you are. Therefore, you're going to have to be my sacredness.

And in Jesus, you are my sacredness, because you came to me and gave me your very self and merged it with my very self. And so it raises the whole question, too, about the fact she's made a doctor of the church. It raises a deep question about what the church is, like the intimacy of it. So that was kind of the tone that I said in the talks.

Richard Rohr (4:07)

Wonderful. Thank you.

Kirsten Oates (4:09)

Richard, I'm curious about when you were first introduced to Thérèse.

Richard Rohr (4:13)

Yes, I picked up a book, a very small one, in my novitiate's library. Your novice year is your first year.

Same year that Jim was a novice, right down the road in Kentucky. I was in Cincinnati. I don't think it's a well-known book, nor by a well-known author. Father Liagre, a Holy Spirit father, he summarized her teaching so simply and so well. I remember closing the book somewhere. Now, remember, I'm 19

I'm looking for inspiration, guidance. And I closed the book saying, this changes everything. This is not what my other professors are saying. I mean, this was the year before Vatican II began, or two years before. When, if we'd be honest, a religious life is very legalistic, very ritualistic. And many of my professors were legalistic, ritualistic. What else could they be? That's all we were given. And now this young French woman with such calm, inner authority say, you know what? It isn't true.