Black-ish Creator Kenya Barris On Turning Down A $100 Million Netflix Deal, The Cost of Success & Curiosity As A Superpower With Malcolm Gladwell

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Kenya Barris (1:04)

Well, it's seven o'clock in the morning, and I get a call, and it's Ted Sarandos. He's like, what did I ever do to you but fucking make you rich? You me, man.

Malcolm Gladwell (1:13)

I love the 7am flex, by the way.

SPEAKER_4 (1:15)

We have directed Kenya Barris. Kenya Barris, American writer, producer, director, creator of the hit sitcom Black-ish.

Rich Roll (1:22)

You have this $100 million Netflix deal We'll see.

Kenya Barris (1:24)

you next time. We were doing successful, and I took the gamble.

Rich Roll (1:27)

You're not just a guy who created a couple of TV shows, like you built an empire.

Kenya Barris (1:32)

I couldn't sell, for four years, I could not sell anything. It was while I was at the height of my career.

Comedians, you learn to sort of take and filter your negativity into something funny. My mom shot my dad, my brother was, were gangsters and drug dealers. A lot of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? People say, like, I'm really good at putting out fires. That's because I grew up in a burning house.

Rich Roll (1:57)

All right. Well, I'm back with Malcolm. Round three or four, I'm not sure. Last time you were here with Chris Chavez, that was a kind of meeting of The Usual Suspects. This is The Unusual Suspects. Today we're joined by Kenya Barris, which is an interesting alliance that you guys have here. We're on the precipice of season two of your Audible Original podcast, The Unusual Suspects. That's the occasion for this conversation. I was fortunate enough to be one of the guests on this show. I think I said at the outset of that experience that I was baffled by being invited when I look at the list of other people that you sat down with. Yeah, I mean, I'm still confused by that, but I'll take advantage of it. But happy to be here with you guys. I've been thinking a lot about the friendship that the two of you have. When I think about the two of you, what you share in common is a tremendous amount of curiosity about the world, and that obviously infuses your creative works. But what differentiates you is that Kenya, your work is all about your personal life.

Whereas Malcolm goes to great lengths to remove any aspect of his personal life from the work that he does. Have you guys discussed that at all?

Malcolm Gladwell (3:21)

Well, it's the difference between... Kenya is a comedian at heart, right? And comics necessarily draw on their own lives. That's like... That's the...

Whereas I'm not a... I don't have a comic perspective on the world.

Kenya Barris (3:37)

But you do, I will sit this talk about, quite often, your upbringing, your grandmother.

Malcolm Gladwell (3:45)

I don't write about it. I will...

Kenya Barris (3:47)

But you write about it. You've written about where your parents came from, your grandmother. That's true.

Rich Roll (3:52)

Your mom is a central figure in your work.

Malcolm Gladwell (3:55)

I just saw her, 95 years young.

Rich Roll (3:58)

But you're sort of like, my life's boring, no one's interested in that.

Malcolm Gladwell (4:01)

My life is, in fact, boring. So, and I don't think anyone would be interested in that. No, the point is, why would I?

I don't know whether others would enjoy it. I would not enjoy the process of writing about my own life, because it's so much more interesting to discover people who are new.

Rich Roll (4:19)

You both know a lot of people, you meet a lot of people. What is it about each other that magnetized you to each other to be co-collaborators?