Better in Person Podcast | How Gary Gulman Turned Depression Into Comedy Gold

Stephen Dubner (0:02)

Hey there, I'm Stephen Dubner, the host of Freakonomics Radio. So what am I doing here in the What Now feed?

Well, Trevor Noah has very kindly let us share a preview of our new show called Better in Person. It is a video talk show where I invite remarkable people over to my apartment to talk, yes, but also to eat and drink, argue, laugh. If Freakonomics Radio is about how things work, then Better in Person is about how people work. One of those people is the comedian and all around remarkable human, Gary Gulman. In our time together, Gary got candid with me about his mental health, his comedic workflow, and the power of basketball in helping keep him sane. In the portion of the conversation you were about to hear, we even get out and play together, so I hope you enjoy it. You can watch the full episodes of Better in Person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel or on Apple Podcasts. Thanks so much for checking it out.

On any day that it's above 40 degrees Fahrenheit in New York City, Gary Gulman plays basketball outdoors to help maintain his mental health. One day when it was maybe 43 degrees, I tagged along. He was shooting baskets on a court up in Central Harlem. There was no one else around.

Stephen Dubner (1:23)

Nice. All right. I want to ask, do you mind if I ask you questions while you shoot?

Gary Gulman (1:27)

No.

Stephen Dubner (1:28)

All right. Here's what I want. Before every shot, yeah, I simply want you to tell me one thing that you love about basketball.

Gary Gulman (1:34)

Okay.

Gary Gulman (1:35)

Larry Bird.

Gary Gulman (1:38)

Boston Celtics.

Stephen Dubner (1:40)

Nice. What about for you? What does it do for you?

Gary Gulman (1:44)

Oh, basketball is good for the heart. Basketball is an anti-anxiety.

Gary Gulman (1:55)

Gary Gulman.

Stephen Dubner (1:58)

So you were very good at basketball when you were a kid.

Gary Gulman (2:00)

Yeah.

Stephen Dubner (2:01)

But you ended up playing not college basketball, but college football. What happened with you in basketball in there?

Gary Gulman (2:07)

Well, I would say part of it was I didn't believe in myself, and I didn't value the enjoyment of it. I wanted to get a scholarship, and I didn't value how much fun I had and how much I looked forward to it. And at the time, they were giving literally 10 times the number of football scholarships than basketball scholarships. Bigger teams. Because they had 100 players at the time. I had the intersection of a bad coach. In my book, I refer to him as Ron Bitter.

He was a very short man who didn't teach us anything about basketball. He took everything he had learned about Bob Knight, except the skills and technique.

Stephen Dubner (2:55)

Chair throwing.

Gary Gulman (2:56)

The cruelty, the chair throwing, the swearing. And I was discouraged. And when some football coaches showed me the type of enthusiasm that I deserved in basketball, I immediately was hooked on that type of feeling. And ultimately, they were able to get me a four-year scholarship to college. So it worked out in some ways, but I think I would have been happier had I reached my potential in basketball. But I will tell you that what I've decided to do is apply that type of love to my comedy and my writing.

And that's been very satisfying.

Stephen Dubner (3:34)

I'm happy for you that basketball is, again, a fun part of your life.

Gary Gulman (3:39)

Yes.

Stephen Dubner (3:39)

But I also think it's a good lesson for anybody watching. Like the thing that you love, you got to remember to keep the love in it. Or it turns into a different thing.

Gary Gulman (3:47)

No, I know.

Stephen Dubner (3:48)

I know.

Gary Gulman (3:49)

It's just, and I feel so grateful that I was able to rediscover it, actually, after I started to feel better from my depression. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Dubner (4:01)

Was it a big part of your getting better?

Gary Gulman (4:03)

Yes, absolutely, because I always used to take for granted that there were so many aspects of basketball that were anti-depressants. I think the thing that people get put off by is when they're not immediately good at it, or if they're not as good as they used to be when they were younger. That was part of it. I had to come to terms with the fact that I would never dunk again, and that I would be shown up by much younger people frequently.

But that's also a great lesson, which is to curb your ego.