Arizona AG on the future of Flock

**Kris Mayes** (0:01)
WBUR Podcasts, Boston.
A feeling by people that they don't want their daily lives to be monitored by the state. And that's been a concern since the founding of our country.

**Chris Bentley** (0:17)
The political reckoning for AI-powered police cameras is here.
It's Tuesday, September 1st, and this is Here & Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Chris Bentley. Today on the show, Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal, on a whistleblower report that President Trump's rush to restrict mail-in voting could derail the midterm elections.

**Richard Blumenthal** (0:52)
This system seems designed to fail.

**Chris Bentley** (0:55)
Also, advocates for national parks are worried about a Trump administration plan to privatize land in Yosemite. They say even a tiny land swap would be a big deal.

**Anna Kramer** (1:06)
If this were to happen, it would set a kind of precedent about the future of all the parks.

**Chris Bentley** (1:12)
That story coming up in about 10 minutes.
But first, backlash to police surveillance is still growing. Lawmakers in Congress and several states are now investigating or restricting the use of AI-powered cameras provided by the company Flock Safety. Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri recently launched one investigation, writing in a letter to Flock's CEO that, quote, Americans demand a full accounting for how their driver data is stored or sold, end quote, by the thousands of law enforcement agencies around the country that use this technology. Arizona's Attorney General has now launched her own review. Kris Mayes is a Democrat and she's running for re-election this year. She told Peter O'Dowd, the public backlash is part anxiety over AI and part discontent with surveillance.

**Kris Mayes** (2:08)
Look, I absolutely do think that our law enforcement in Arizona is by and large using the technology lawfully and it has been used to solve crimes. That's what's so hard about this issue is that we don't want to lose what's good about these kinds of cameras. But Americans have fundamental rights and especially 4th Amendment rights.
I personally have concerns about the fact that it seems like it's possible for these systems to be accessed by law enforcement and federal agencies outside of the state of Arizona. Right now, there are a lot of people in my state and other states that don't trust the federal government with access to this kind of data. So there are real questions about that, about how quickly and how often the data is being purged, and in general, a feeling by people that they don't want their daily lives to be monitored by the state. That's been a concern since the founding of our country.

**Peter O'Dowd** (3:22)
I know your investigation is just getting underway, but I'm curious what your end goals are here. Is there a potential state-wide ban on the table? Is that something you might support?

**Kris Mayes** (3:35)
I think what we want to do is do this analysis, this study, get our arms around it, and then take a position on it. I will tell you, there is going to be legislation.
We know that actually members of our legislature from both political parties are gonna put forward legislation to ban flock cameras. That is almost a certainty that that legislation will be introduced. And so the question is, can we craft legislation that allows our law enforcement to continue to fight crime using technology wisely and lawfully, but also in a way that protects our Fourth Amendment rights and the privacy rights of all Arizonans?

**Peter O'Dowd** (4:23)
Do you think this is just good politics to get folks on your side?

**Kris Mayes** (4:27)
I think it's good public policy to talk about this issue, to provide some leadership on this issue. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see other AGs across the country start to take stands on this and start to do assessments of this.
So good public policy often is good politics. And frankly, the public is demanding this and demanding more accountability of these surveillance systems.

**Peter O'Dowd** (4:58)
I hear you're getting a few messages there in the background. You're a busy person.
No, no problem at all. My colleagues at WBUR, they spoke yesterday with a former police chief from Newton, Massachusetts. His name is John Carmichael. He's in favor of the technology despite the public backlash. Let's listen.

**John Carmichael** (5:15)
The technology is vital, I think, for law enforcement to help with their investigations.

**Peter O'Dowd** (5:21)
I want to say also that a FLOC spokesperson told us that the technology has helped to recover stolen vehicles. It's even helped locate missing people.
But listen, I know you mentioned there may be some value in these cameras as a crime fighting tool. Do you worry about alienating police here?