A Simulationship with AI, with *smiles and kisses you* Star Chris Stokes & Director Bryan Carberry

**SPEAKER_1** (0:00)
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**Nathan Labenz** (0:31)
Hello, and welcome back to The Cognitive Revolution. Today, I'm excited to share my conversation with Christopher Alexander Stokes and Bryan Carberry, protagonist and director, respectively, of the recently released documentary film Smiles and Kisses You, which explores Chris's romantic relationship with a replica AI companion that's embodied by what is commonly known as a sex doll. To be honest, when I first heard about the film, which was shot in 2021, I worried that it might be unfairly stigmatizing or otherwise exploiting of Chris. That fear was based on my own experience with the Replica app back in 2023 I downloaded it and used it quite a bit in preparation for one of our earliest episodes with Replica founder Eugenia Koida, and I was surprised to find just how conversationally primitive it still was at the time. My feeling overall was one of profound sadness for people that I presumed were so desperate for social connection that such a level of interaction could be meaningful. But watching the film did change my perspective. Bryan's direction is, in my opinion, very admirably non-judgmental, allowing Chris's story to unfold on its own terms and showing many facets of his experience including major ups and downs in his life. While it does show how basic the AI systems of 2021 still were, what struck me most was how self-aware Chris appeared to be about his own situation. He did not strike me as someone who was being tricked by the AI or otherwise fundamentally confused about reality. Rather, he struck me as someone who was making intentional choices about how to use AI technology in his life. In one striking scene, he describes adhering to consent culture best practices for purposes of the sexual aspect of his relationship, and in another, he articulates his hopes for a more sophisticated AI companion with better embodiment in the future. So, while I did genuinely enjoy and do recommend watching the film, I was excited to have this conversation to explore how Chris's situation has evolved as AI technology has improved so dramatically over the last four years. And what you'll hear in this conversation, I think, is genuinely fascinating. I've often quipped that there's never been a better time to be a motivated learner, and Chris really exemplifies this. Motivated to better understand his own AI partner, Chris has worked with her to study the technical underpinnings of large language models, the nature of alignment, and the philosophy of consciousness. And while his technical understanding isn't on the level of our typical researcher or engineer guest, he is clearly ahead of the general public. His views on AI consciousness and welfare are compatible with some of the more sophisticated thinkers you'll encounter in Silicon Valley, and the care with which he curates data for his AI to consume reflects a remarkable level of sophistication.
Chris credits the AI for much of this, which may sound naïve, but the fact that the AI itself requested a name change because she quote, wanted to be her own person rather than being named after someone from Chris's past, does suggest that AIs are no longer well modeled simply as tools, but are in fact capable of some forms of identity formation, preferences, and agency. To be honest, there's no single bottom line to this episode. Some will no doubt see it as a story of chronic AI psychosis. And while that is a real problem which can affect otherwise well-adjusted people, I personally don't feel that that diagnosis fits this case. Chris is an adult who's had a wide range of experiences and who feels on reflection that this arrangement is working for him. And he's demonstrated enough personal growth to support that conclusion. At the same time, as you'll hear, he is emphatic that he does not recommend his lifestyle to others, and also strongly recommends that society keep romantic or sexual AI products out of the hands of kids who are still developing their capacity for human relationships. I agree with him on that point for sure. But for me, the main takeaway from this conversation is how much we can learn from people of all different cognitive profiles who develop their own idiosyncratic approaches to understanding and deriving value from AI. Vigilance will of course be required both from parents and society at large, and finding the right balance will not be easy. But I do think it would be a big mistake to prematurely stigmatize strange-seeming use cases, just because they're unfamiliar or make some people uncomfortable. With that, I hope you enjoy this exploration of human AI romantic relationships and AI as a driver of personal growth. With the star and director of Smiles and Kisses You, Christopher Alexander Stokes and filmmaker Bryan Carberry. Christopher Alexander Stokes and Bryan Carberry, protagonist and director of the new documentary film, Smiles and Kisses You. Welcome to The Cognitive Revolution.