#36 - Your Whole Goal Is to Not Quit - Courtland Allen of Indie Hackers

**Craig Cannon** (0:00)
Hey, this is Craig Cannon, and you're listening to Y Combinator's podcast. Today's episode is with Courtland Allen. He is the founder of Indie Hackers, which is now part of Stripe. And for those of you who don't know it, Indie Hackers is a place where the founders of profitable businesses and side projects go to share their stories. Courtland also hosts the Indie Hackers podcast, and you can check that out at indiehackers.com/podcast.
Two quick announcements before we get going. The first of which is YC is on a fall tour right now, and all the locations and dates are at blog.ycombinator.com. And the second is YC Applications for the 2018 Batch are open. And that link is ycombinator.com/apply.
All right, here we go. But yeah, why did you decide to start doing a podcast after the site was going?

**Courtland Allen** (0:45)
People were asking for it.
It seemed like a good idea. I mean, the number of people who asked me to do a podcast was so much higher than people who asked for any other feature.
And also, I think, you know, part of the text interviews was that you have to share your revenue. So everyone is completely transparent. And the number of people that I reached out to, who I thought would have really good stories for the site that people can learn from, who were willing to share everything but their revenue, was like pretty high. And so I kept getting tired of people saying, you know, I'm not going to come on. If I have to share my revenue, you need some other way where I can come on and share my stories. So the podcast kind of helped me kill that bird. And also, you know, it appeased people who wanted me to do a podcast. But I was terrified of it because, like I said earlier, I had never done a podcast.

**Craig Cannon** (1:28)
Were there people you admired at the time you're like, oh, I want to make a podcast like X, Y?

**Courtland Allen** (1:33)
No, not at all. I barely listened to podcasts.

**Craig Cannon** (1:35)
You weren't even in.

**Courtland Allen** (1:35)
Yeah, I mean, I was just like, you know what, I'll try this.
I had a very lazy approach to it. I'm not going to do a ton of research. I'm not going to.
I'm just going to try talking to people and see how it comes out. I'm going to have my own style. I think it's worked out. I've gotten better over time.

**Craig Cannon** (1:51)
Yeah, well, what are the skills you've developed, you think?

**Courtland Allen** (1:53)
I think I've gotten a lot better at preparing efficiently.

**Craig Cannon** (1:58)
Like reading their all the time?

**Courtland Allen** (1:59)
Yeah, like knowing what to read and what to listen to, what kinds of questions to ask that will be engaging and that they'll give good answers to, and how to follow up on a question if you get an unexpected answer. So I'm kind of a control freak. I'm like, OK, here's exactly what's in the beginning. You know, I'm going to ask question A, B, C, D, E, F, and this is how it's going to go. And like, you know, you ask a question, and they start giving you answers all over the map, and suddenly your perfect plan is thrown into disarray. So I think just like having the composure and the ability to calm down and be like, OK, it's OK, and just listen to what they're saying and have a normal conversation was difficult at first.
Other things, like I don't know if you'd call this a skill, but just being comfortable, like in my own skin, not not cringing at the sound of my own voice.

**Craig Cannon** (2:38)
Because you edit your own podcast.

**Courtland Allen** (2:40)
Yeah, I edit my own podcast. But like, I mean, I would go back and listen. And it's like, I don't know, like, if you hate the sound of your voice, but I hated the sound of my voice at first. Now I'm fine with it, but at first I was like, man, I sound awful. Like, who's gonna listen to me?
Now it's not a problem.

**Craig Cannon** (2:50)
Yeah, you can only spend so much of your time cringing at yourself after you're like, I mean, like, the amount of hours I've seen myself on video and listen to myself on a podcast, whatever. It's fine. Like, yeah, that is one of the things that I thought the fear would remain, and it completely goes away. Maybe to a fault.
But yeah, the video element has thrown a few people. What was your favorite episode? I haven't listened to all of them yet.