20VC: Wix's Founder on What Wall St Gets Wrong About AI and Wix | Will Base44 Win the Vibe Coding Wars | The Truth About the Economics of Vibe-Coding | The Buyback Disaster: Lessons Learned with Avishai Abrahami

**Avishai Abrahami** (0:00)
You're not going to vibe called Shopify, no matter how good you are. Today, we are trading on other companies' news. We're not trading on Wix news. I really don't care.
We make about $400 million a year, okay, and fake cash flow. So we make cash and we invest about 200 and something million into Base44. We all give too much credit for AI and what it can do. If I would be in the university starting today, I would be terrified. If I'm here, I need to be fully committed to what I'm doing, because I've chosen to be here.

**Harry Stebbings** (0:30)
This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, it's a tough time for some public company CEOs with the SaaS apocalypse. That is more true for this CEO than almost any other. The Wix market cap is about $2.8 billion.
They are doing $2.1 billion in revenue. They have Base44, which is their vibe coding product, which is now well over $150 million in ARR, growing incredibly quickly. And quite frankly, the public markets just won't give them a break. Whether it's justified or not, it's been pretty brutal. The buyback has been about as successful as the Titanic voyage. And poor Avishai, their CEO, is going through it. I wanted to sit down with him and hear how he thought about how Base44 makes such a big part of their business today and what that looks like moving forwards, how he reflects on the buyback, what public market investors don't see, that they should see, this and so much more, in what I think is probably the most frank and honest conversation Avishai has had in recent years about the Wix business. But before we dive into the show today, founders face a different set of challenges at every stage of growth. For Sid Shait, co-founder and CEO of Dematrice, JP Morgan delivered the guidance and expertise to help navigate what came next. He credits JP Morgan's high-touch approach with supporting Dematrice as it grew and expanded internationally whether you're in the early days or expanding into new markets. JP Morgan helps startups navigate complexity with real confidence, offering personalized guidance and deep sector expertise. Find out how JP Morgan helps founders at jpmorgan.com/growwithoutlimits.
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**Avishai Abrahami** (3:59)
You have now arrived at your destination.

**Harry Stebbings** (4:02)
Avishai, it is so good to have you on the show, dude. I've wanted to make this one happen for a while. Thank you so much for joining me.

**Avishai Abrahami** (4:08)
My pleasure, I'm so happy to be here. I've watched a lot of episodes, and as I said, I learned a lot, so I'm very excited to be on the spotlight.

**Harry Stebbings** (4:15)
Dude, you know, I've just got to start with just a weird thing, but I like to bring people to personality and life a little bit. I spoke to Eran at Monday before the show, and he told me that you stay up insanely late. Is that true?
And what does the sleep schedule look like just before we dive in?

**Avishai Abrahami** (4:30)
So I usually go to sleep at around 5 to 6 a.m. And I'd wake up around 11, 11.30. I've been my routines pretty much, I remember myself.
I think there's something good about it for a CEO, as surprisingly as it might sound, because I have a few hours where I can actually think and work in things and plan things and do things. And it's supposed to always be, you know, in a meeting we have to fight to get a clear schedule. So I have probably four hours where I can do real work and not just talk to people.