#209 - Johann Hari - We Built A World Humans Can’t Survive

Johann Hari (0:00)

We're living in a storm of cognitive degradation as a result of being constantly entreated. Employment structures that are actually making their staff dumber, degrading their cognitive ability, making them make more mistakes, fucking their creativity, which is the one thing humans really can still contribute. All these companies care about, they are machines. Yeah, actually, they're worse than cigarettes, but they are machines designed to harvest your attention.

Peter McCormack (0:27)

I just can't help but think we, as humans, aren't designed for the world we've built. I think we've, in some ways, we've made ourselves more connected and at the same time, made ourselves more disconnected.

Johann Hari (0:41)

The biggest reason why these problems are rising is because we've built a culture that is not meeting our deep, underlying psychological needs. Imagine a world where all the nice, kind, decent people, those people are muffled and pushed to the back, and the craziest, meanest, nastiest people are given a megaphone and pushed to the front. Except we don't have to imagine it, because we're living in that fucking world.

Peter McCormack (1:03)

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It's a good time to talk to you, because I'm 47 I'm really reflective at the moment.

Johann Hari (1:32)

We're exactly the same age.

Peter McCormack (1:33)

OK, when you're 48-ish.

Johann Hari (1:35)

January.

Peter McCormack (1:36)

I'm just a couple of months ahead of you. But like, it's the final leg now. You know, it's the final leg of the career.

And I'm questioning a lot, kids' ages and everything, everything going through that. But I'm 22 and 16

And they're going into a world where we don't even know there are going to be any jobs in the next few years. But like what I'm thinking about a lot is we make a show, which is about civilizational stuff like technology, Bitcoin, politics. And I just can't help but think we as humans, are designed for the world we've built. Like we have all this incredible technology. We have a world of abundance, but I think we're designed for scarcity. And I don't think we could cope with abundance. I can't cope with abundance. I'm two, three stone overweight. And I think about it a lot at the moment. And I'll add one more layer to that. I watched a film with my son called Mid 90s. I don't know if you've seen it.

Johann Hari (2:33)

No, what is it?

Peter McCormack (2:33)

Jonah Hill film. It's a skateboarding film, but it's really a coming of age film. There's no mobile phones. It was like my childhood, get a skateboard Friday night, go skateboarding. And my son was looking at guys, God, that looked like a really cool time to live.

And the layers of crap we've put on our kids and the world we've built. I don't know if it... I think we've, in some ways, we've made ourselves more connected and at the same time made ourselves more disconnected, which I know is something you talk about.

Johann Hari (3:02)

Yeah, totally. God, there's so many things. There's so many things I write about.

You know, if I think about the four books I've done most recently, you know, they're about addiction, depression, anxiety, why we can't pay attention and the new weight loss structure. You think about all of them. So one way you could think about them, I think it's an interesting one to explore, is like abundance, right? What you're saying. I think there's definitely some truth in that.

The frame I ended up thinking about it with more is...

The best way of putting it, I think, would be to say, obviously, you know you have physical needs. You need food, you need water, you need shelter, you need clean air. If I took that away from you, you'd be fucked really quickly. But there's equally strong evidence that all human beings have natural psychological needs. You need to feel you belong. You need to feel your life has meaning and purpose. You need to feel that people see you and value you. You need to feel you've got a future that makes sense to you. And I think there's lots of things going on. Abundance is one of them. There's loads of others as well. There's biological stuff, there's loads of stuff. But for me, the biggest reason why these problems are rising is because we've built a culture that is not meeting our deep underlying psychological needs. There are loads of great things about the way we live now. You're absolutely right. We have largely solved the problems of material scarcity. That is not a trivial thing.