186. Question Answer XVII

John Dickson (0:00)

When we read of the bad behaviour of our leaders, we should take it first as a warning to ourselves, because we're made of the same stuff, right? We're just as prone to the same evils. Now, this is not to excuse bad behaviour, but it's to say we need to see it in ourselves and adopt a more humble posture.

Mark Hadley (0:26)

I am therefore concerned with a history of the forms of action and behaviour of Christianity beyond all institutional and confessional barriers. I'm writing the history of the undeviating, intertwining of so-called temporal and spiritual politics, including the secularised consequences of this religion, criminality in foreign policy, in agricultural, trade and financial policy, in educational policy, in culture, in censorship, in the continued spread of ignorance and superstition, in the unscrupulous exploitation of sexual morality, of marriage law, of criminal law. I am writing the history of clerical criminality in private enrichment, in the haggling for office, in pious fraud, in the cult of miracles and relics, in the most diverse types of forgery, et cetera, et cetera.

In short, I am writing a history of crime in the entire breadth of state, church and social life in Christendom.

Kaley Payne (1:33)

Well, that's a quote from Karlheinz Deschner, a German author whose life work was an enormous 10-volume account called The Criminal History of Christianity. He wrote it over almost 20 years before his death in 2014 It's really hard to find an English translation of it, actually. It was published in its original German, and there are abridged English versions. But Deschner was a harsh critic of Christianity, and he aimed to write a kind of church history read differently as a history of crimes committed with the approval or applause of the church.

What way to make of these types of accounts is one of our questions for this, our 17th Q&A episode. I'm producer Kaley, and with the help of director Mark, we'll be taking you through today's episode while we save John's voice to actually answer your questions. I'm not John Dickson, but this is Undeceptions.

Each episode, we explore some aspect of life, faith, history, science, culture or ethics that's either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten.

Mark Hadley (2:44)

With the help of people who know what they're talking about.

Kaley Payne (2:47)

And for this episode, that's John. We're trying to under seeve ourselves and let the truth out.

One of our listeners, John, from Switzerland recently read a bit of Dachshund in the original German and sent us this question. Director Mark's going to read it for us.

Mark Hadley (3:32)

I recently listened to your episode about Gregory the Great, which I found truly inspiring. Gregory seems to have combined leadership with humility. His letters show the qualities of a wise and capable leader, yet they also reveal how deeply he carried many burdens. After listening, I came across a German 10-volume work titled The Criminal History of Christianity. Don't know whether there is an English translation. By Karl Heinz Deschner.

Essentially, Deschner collects everything negative that figures like Augustine and Gregory the Great ever did and leaves out all the good, ending up with a very grim picture of Christianity as a whole. He takes this approach throughout the entire history of the faith. Because I remembered an episode of yours emphasising the importance of engaging with different opinions, I decided to read parts of his work. I discovered some things about Gregory that I hadn't known. I read about a monk named Justice, a physician at the monastery of St. Andrew. On his deathbed, he confessed to another monk, Copiosis, that he had stolen three golden coins. When Gregory learned of this, he reportedly ordered that no one should visit Justice again and that his dead body should be thrown onto the dung heap with the three coins placed beside him. The monks were told to gather and shout, To hell with you and your money!

Justice, upon hearing this from Copiosis, is said to have died of grief.

Deshner relates this with bitter sarcasm, comparing Gregory's severity towards a poor monk to his own relative wealth, noting that even 13 years after becoming a Benedictine, Gregory still owned several estates.

I must say, this account sounds rather appalling. What do you do with stories like this?

John Dickson (5:18)

Thanks, John, for this multi-layered question. There are a bunch of things to say, but I'll try and be brief. The work you reference is so polemical that honestly, it isn't trusted very widely. The best deceits always contain a little bit of truth. Now in our episode about Gregory the Great, we never wanted to make out that he was completely pure, that he was the ultimate example or anything like that. Every historical figure has a dark side because every human being, even the best of us, has a dark side. But we can say a few things about Gregory that a responsible historian, which Karl Heinz Deschner isn't, would have to throw into the mix to give an accurate account of this particular story you raise. We do know the story of the monk named Justice, but only because Gregory is the one who tells it. In his famous book, The Dialogues, and we're going to link to the dialogues in the show notes. There's a pretty decent translation out there. It's clear from Gregory's own account that he thought he was acting for good reason, and that afterwards he regretted how harsh he was.