183. With Lennox

**John Lennox** (0:00)
You know, people love to say I'm a skeptic, and my response to it is, Oh, join the club, so am I. Tell me, what are you skeptical about? Because I may be skeptical about different things. So you might know things that will help my skepticism, and I might know things that will help yours.
So skepticism, it's a nice Greek word, as you know, skeptine, to view from a distance. And I like to remind people that you have to give up your distance to get to know certain things, in particular to get to know people and to get to know God. So I think there's a lot of room for discussion in there.

**Stephen Bartlett** (0:44)
John, thank you. One of the most compelling arguments for God that you've presented and your way of seeing the world and being in it is not actually necessarily anything you've written in your books or not necessarily anything you've said.
It is actually you and you have a certain peace and contentment that I rarely see in people that I interview, but I often see and I've almost always seen in the Christians that I've interviewed.

**John Dickson** (1:20)
That's Stephen Bartlett, the British entrepreneur and host of the popular podcast, The Diary of a CEO. He was talking to Professor John Lennox, one of Christianity's greatest Undeceivers.
The Conversation was published just over a month ago and they covered a lot of space. Science versus faith, mathematics and God, artificial intelligence, the decline of atheism and much more. But at the very end there, Stephen, who's not known for being into Christianity, commends John for something I've known about him for a long time. It's not just John's words that have impacted a generation. Beautiful though they are, it's his demeanor might be the right word. His Irish charm, his kindness and his general approachability diffuse even the most intense debate, and John Lennox has had many intense debates in his lifetime. This is a man who has taken the stage to debate two of the most formidable opponents of the Christian faith of the last 30 or 40 years, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Dawkins and Hitchens were two of the so-called Four Horsemen of the New Atheists, an early 21st century secular movement that not only rejected religion, but sought to present it as irrational, even dangerous, and they championed science as the pinnacle of truth. Its proponents were incredibly smart, but militant in their rejection of religion of any kind, and particularly Christianity. But they hadn't anticipated a distinguished, grandfatherly character to step up to the microphone and take them on, with a warm, welcoming smile and a twinkle in his eye.
Here's a grab from the 2007 debate with Professor Dawkins.

**John Lennox** (3:26)
Now, you ask us to imagine with John Lennon a world without religion. Well, I'd like you to imagine with John Lennox.
A world without atheism, with no Stalin, with no Mao, with no Paul Pott, to name the heads of the three officially atheistic states. A world with no gulag, no cultural revolution, no killing fields. I think that would be a world worth imagining too.

**John Dickson** (3:55)
It's always great to talk with John Lennox. And in this episode, we'll hear from him, not just about his recent exploits, but also about the winding roads that have led him to become the closest thing to CS. Lewis that the world has seen in 50 years. From mathematics to theology, from Northern Ireland to Eastern Europe, John has had one great aim, and it's the aim of this podcast, to uncover the truth and the beauty of Christianity for a world that doesn't quite know what to make of Christianity. I'm John Dickson, and this is A Very Undeceptions.
Each episode of Undeceptions, we explore some aspect of life, faith, history, culture, science or ethics that's either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten. And with the help of people who know what they're talking about, we're trying to underieve ourselves and let the truth out.

**John Lennox** (5:42)
The other thing that you may or may not know about that might interest you, I was interviewed for a diary of a CEO a couple of weeks ago.

**John Dickson** (5:51)
I mean, the Internet exploded about it. So, of course. So, I know it's a come down talking to little old Undeceptions, but listen, maybe you can bear with us.

**John Lennox** (6:05)
I'm always delighted to see you.

**John Dickson** (6:09)
Well, I guess we should probably have a proper interview now, if that's okay with you.

**John Lennox** (6:13)
Okay, that's absolutely fine.

**John Dickson** (6:16)
That, of course, is John Lennox, Emeritus Professor of Mathematics and Fellow of Green Templeton College at the University of Oxford. He's also the author of a bunch of books, including God's Undertaker as Science Buried God, and God, AI, and the End of History. He's several times a friend of the show, so check out the links in the show notes for his previous appearances. And I'm glad to be able to call him an actual friend. He was born in Belfast in 1943 and grew up in Amar, sometimes called the ecclesiastical capital of all Ireland. The city is home to Protestant and Catholic cathedrals, and both of them are called St. Patrick's, named of course after the man who in the 5th century brought Christianity to Ireland. He deserves an episode one day. Don't you think, Kaley?