World-Renowned Historian: When Leaders Actually Change History | Jared Diamond - EP 815

**John R. Miles** (0:00)
What's the most important quality of a great leader? Is it courage, vision, integrity, intelligence? Most leadership is built around helping us find that one thing, the secret trait technique that separates great leaders from everyone else. But when I asked Jared Diamond that question, his answer caught me completely off guard.
He said the biggest mistake leaders can make is searching for one most important thing. Take a listen to this.

**Jared Diamond** (0:37)
If a couple who are about to get married ask, what's the secret of a successful marriage? I know that couple is at risk of getting divorced because to have a successful marriage, you've got to get 37 things right. You have to agree about sex and money and children and religion. If you think that one thing is most important, your marriage is going to end up in disaster. Similarly, if a leader asks, what is the one most important thing? I would say the one most important thing is to stop looking for the one most important thing, to focus on getting 37 things right.

**John R. Miles** (1:08)
It's your friend John and welcome to Passion Struck. I'm so glad you're here. Whether you're a long time listener or someone who just discovered the show, thank you for pressing play today.
Maybe you've built the life you were supposed to want, but you've quietly wondered why it still doesn't feel like enough.
If that's you, you're in the right place. Every week, I sit down with the world's top scientists, researchers, and thinkers to uncover what it actually takes to build an intentional life that matters. Thanks for joining me. Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Passion Struck. I'm so glad you're here. This is episode 815, and today we're continuing our new series, The Adaptive Human, How We Thrive in a Changing World. Earlier this week, Angela Duckworth challenged us to think differently about human potential. Her message was simple. Who we become isn't shaped only by what's inside us, our situations matter. The people around us, the environments we're in, the circumstances we find ourselves facing. But that raises another question. What happens when the situation itself creates the opportunity for someone to lead? And how do we know whether a leader truly changed the outcome or whether someone else in the same circumstances might have done exactly the same thing? That's the fascinating question at the heart of today's conversation. Joining me today is Jared Diamond, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author and one of the most influential thinkers in the world. His new book, Profits, Profits, Coaches and Kings, explores leadership through an extraordinary range of examples from business and politics to sports and religion. And Jared asked a question that sounds simple, but turns out to be incredibly difficult to answer.
When do leaders actually matter? In this conversation, we explore why there's no single formula for great leadership. Why circumstances can matter as much as the individual, and why some people rise to moments that no one ever expected them to handle. But here's what stayed with me long after we finished recording. We tend to look at great leaders after the fact and assume we should have seen their potential all along.
Jared's work challenges that assumption. Sometimes you can't know what someone is capable of until they're confronted with a moment that demands more of them than anyone expected. And maybe that's true for all of us. Because at some point, each of us will face a moment we didn't ask for, a challenge we didn't anticipate, a situation that requires us to become something more. The question is, what will that moment reveal about you? So let's dive in. Here's my conversation with Jared Diamond. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life that matters. Now, let that journey begin.
I am so honored today to welcome Jared Diamond to Passion Struck. Jared, it is such an honor to have you on the show.

**Jared Diamond** (4:48)
It's a great pleasure to be with you.

**John R. Miles** (4:51)
Jared, I thought instead of starting with your new book, which I am going to just show here, today we're going to be discussing your brand new book, Profits, Coaches and Kings, When Do Leaders Matter? And I was so excited to get an advanced readers copy of it. But before we get into that, I wanted to ask a couple of background questions.
I'd like to begin somewhere more personal for you. You and my father, as we were discussing, were born the same year.
And reading many of the interviews I had read to get prepared for today's interview, I was really struck by something. After a lifetime of scientific discovery, winning the Pulitzer winning book, MacArthur Fellow, changing how we understand civilizations, et cetera, you said in one of the interviews that the accomplishment you're most proud of is helping your wife and children find happiness. And I wanted to ask, looking back across nearly nine decades, how has your definition of a life well lived changed?