Why Would Any Man Choose To Be Cucked? - Dr David Ley - #588

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Dr. David Ley. He's a clinical psychologist and a board member of the Sexual Health Alliance, whose research focuses on issues relating to sexuality, pornography and mental health. Your partner being intimate with another guy should evolutionarily be one of the biggest fears in a man's life. Actually, encouraging this behavior seems almost unthinkable, and yet cooking is becoming a much more common pursuit and one of the most popular categories of online porn. Expect to learn the stats around how common cookholding actually is, whether cookholding could cover up a husband's desire to be with another man, how often this goes wrong and destroys a relationship, whether sex addiction is an actual thing, some surprising research around porn addiction, how religiosity predicts dysfunction with porn, and much more. This is an area of research which, perhaps unsurprisingly, is not massively delved into. So Dr. David Ley gets to own almost an entire category here as being one of the number one pro porn and cooking researchers on the planet. But it is very interesting. And despite me not being able to perhaps put myself into the mindset of this, the explanation at least begins to illuminate what might be going on at the moment. This is very, very interesting. Enjoy. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Mudwater. Mudwater is a coffee alternative brand that aims to provide a healthier, more sustainable option for people looking to kickstart their day. You know that I am a big fan of restricting the amount of caffeine that you have. You do not need to be reliant on it. And Mudwater is a great alternative. The main ingredients are organic tumeric, cinnamon, ginger and lion's mane mushroom. These ingredients are known for their anti-inflammatory and antioxidant properties, which can help to improve brain function and reduce the risk of chronic disease. Additionally, the tumeric and ginger in the blend can help alleviate pain and inflammation in the body. One of the unique things about Mudwater is that it's not just a drink but also a ritual. The brand encourages users to take a minute or two to meditate every morning and reflect before drinking their Mudwater as a way to start the day with a clear and focused mind. It's also 100% USDA organic, non-GMO, gluten-free, vegan and kosher certified. Plus, you can get a 15% discount off your first order if you go to mudwtr.com/modernwisdom and use the code modern wisdom at checkout for 15% off. That's mudwtr.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. And in final news, this episode is brought to you by House Of Macadamias. I am still absolutely nailing through their salted macadamia nuts. They taste so fantastic. I never thought that I was going to become a macadamia addict. And yet here I am. House Of Macadamias have partnered with 94 independent farmers forming the single largest producer in the world, which gets them the first pick of the highest quality macadamia nuts in the region to make their one-of-a-kind snacks like their vegan, paleo and keto friendly chocolate dipped macadamias. They took two years of taste testing to get these right and they've got salty, sweet and spicy versions. They've also got a very unique nutritional profile. They've got rare Omega 7s. They've got the best Omega 3 to 6 ratio of any kind of nut. And you can get 20% off your first purchase if you go to houseofmacadamias.com/modernwisdom.
If you or somebody else that you know absolutely loves nuts, you need to try these out. That's houseofmacadamias.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom a checkout. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dr. David Ley.
What about cook-holding? Why did you get into that?

**David J. Ley** (4:05)
Well, to be clear, why did I get into writing and reading and researching about it and working with people that engage in it?
Back in 2007, I was clinically depressed. In my day job, so to speak, I run a large community mental health center agency, traditional behavioral health services, lots of Medicaid, HR, budget, all those kinds of issues. And it was really challenging. I was really struggling. So I started collecting data for a study about consensual non-monogamy. At the time, very little had been published about polyamory, etc. And I never published the study. It was a crappy little study, probably not very good anyway. But as I was doing it, I ran into these two couples who lived the cuckold or hot wife lifestyle, where the wife was enthusiastically sexual with people outside the relationship, with men outside the relationship, and the husband was monogamous. And my initial impression and reaction was honestly to say, wow, that's crazy. That can't work. But what was really remarkable was that both of these couples had been married for decades. They had incredibly successful careers, very healthy, you know, kids, families, incredible communication skills. By every measure that we would, as a therapist, you know, apply, these were very healthy people. And so then I kind of questioned myself. I was like, well, why did I assume that they're unhealthy? And at that point, you know, I'd been working around sexuality issues for a while. But I realized that without noticing it, I was applying moral biases around female sexuality, around promiscuity, around monogamy. And those biases had snuck into my clinical thinking. And so I went to the literature, and there was nothing published about this. There was one study in the 90s by an Israeli psychologist who analyzed, you know, letters to Penthouse about wife sharing. And there was nothing else. Nothing else published about this. And then as I started, you know, talking to people, I started hearing how common this was. And so I dove into the literature and evolutionary psychology, psychology of monogamy, biology of sexuality, female sexual arousal.