Why We Fall for the Wrong People - Jessica Baum - #1020

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
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What's your best definition of safety?

**Jessica Baum** (0:58)
Oh, wow. I get so technical because safety means so much to me now. So safety is just to feel really connected and like a sense of togetherness when you're with people and a feeling of relaxed and openness in your body.

**Chris Williamson** (1:17)
I recently did a week long retreat working on emotions for 12 hours a day. Did your buck just fall down behind you? There's a poltergeist in there. That's okay. I recently did a week long retreat working on emotions for 12 hours a day.
12 hours a day, 9 a.m. till 9 p.m. for six and a half days. One of the best definitions of safety that I came across while I was there was knowing that you'll be okay no matter what happens. I really love that as a definition of safety because it feels, even if things are difficult, it's not about hard stuff not happening, it's about knowing that you'll be there on the other side of it, and knowing that you'll be okay on the other side of it as well. I wanted to get your thoughts on that given you've just written an entire book about it.

**Jessica Baum** (2:09)
Well, I just think not even about my book, but sometimes in life we're not okay. But I think what gives me safety is knowing that I have the support that no matter what, even if not okay things happen, war, crisis, that I have people around me that will be there and support me no matter what, which that actually gives me a sense of safety. Because we live in such a world where anything can happen, and there's so much uncertainty, and the support system that I have actually gives me more safety than anything else.

**Chris Williamson** (2:43)
So safety is not just something that exists inside of you. You can actually outsource it. You can be unsafe and the people around you can make you safe, or you can be not okay and the people around you can make you safe?

**Jessica Baum** (2:54)
Yeah. So now we're getting into the book, but we're talking about secure attachment. I mean, secure attachment is built from people who have what we call a window of tolerance, a sense of safety within their nervous system, and they're around you and you've internalized that. So the more you internalize that safety from other people, the more you feel safe in and out the world. If you don't get that, that's when we get the insecure types of attachment.

**Chris Williamson** (3:20)
What are some of the signs that somebody feels unsafe in a relationship signals from their nervous system? What will they feel like?

**Jessica Baum** (3:28)
I mean, everything from your gut dropping, your heart racing, feeling like the ball is going to drop, feeling smothered, feeling like you're going to lose yourself, feeling abandonment. All of those things are usually felt sensationally in your body through close connections and through small behaviors that you share with your partner or anyone that's close and important.

**Chris Williamson** (3:50)
What are some of the small behaviors that people might not think of that contribute to this?

**Jessica Baum** (3:55)
You know, one that comes to me comes to mind is the blank stare. So like when you're really engaging with someone and they dissociate and they kind of check out, my system will register, oh my god, you're not with me right now. And that can kind of set my system on fire. And that's actually what a baby feels when they're with their primary caregiver. And the caregiver checks out because we need connection so badly. It's a biological imperative. When we can sense that someone's not with us, our nervous system responds to that and it signals danger.