Why the smartest person in the room is asking the “dumb” questions with Molly Graham

**Modupe Akinola** (0:00)
I'm Modupe Akinola. This is TED Business, a podcast from TED. For today's show, we're bringing you something a little different. A conversation recorded live at the TED Conference back in April with company and community builder, Molly Graham. Molly came onto the TED scene back in 2024 when she gave a talk telling people to ditch the stairs and jump off a cliff. Don't worry, it's a metaphor. Molly loves metaphors. And now she's back, this time as the new host of TED's WorkLife podcast. She's taken the reins from long time host Adam Grant, and honestly, I can't think of a better person for the job. After a long career of supporting leaders at some of the country's largest tech companies, Molly wants to use her vast experience to help more people feel less alone in their careers. During our conversation, Molly shared some special tips on how to embrace change, especially during a time where all of our jobs are rapidly changing, whether we like it or not. But first, a quick break.
And now, my conversation with Molly Graham.
Molly Graham, it is so nice to have you on the TED Business Podcast.

**Molly Graham** (1:26)
Thank you so much for having me.

**Modupe Akinola** (1:27)
I am delighted to be able to spend time with you today. And you're not new to TED in 2024 You did give a TED Talk.

**Molly Graham** (1:35)
I did.

**Modupe Akinola** (1:36)
And you told folks in that talk that they shouldn't take the stairs. Can you tell our listeners what you told them?

**Molly Graham** (1:43)
The stairs is my sort of metaphor. I live in metaphors for kind of what I think what we think careers are supposed to feel like. Or maybe it's like what our parents told us careers are supposed to feel like, where you're supposed to show up in college and know what you want to do. That major is supposed to lead you to your first job. And then you get another job and you get promoted and promoted and promoted forever. The best part about the stairs is safety and security. It feels like you know what you need to do to get ahead. The worst part of the stairs is that it's like a weird video game that you can get stuck inside of for years. The stairs will make you feel like your self-worth is tied to your title or your last performance rating or your next promotion.
And I would say that like I followed that path for a little while. And then at some point, someone offered me a crazy opportunity and actually drew on a whiteboard for me what he called a cliff jump. He was like, you can stay on the stairs. It's boring over there, but why don't you jump off a cliff? And most people do not stay stuck on the stairs out of necessity. They stay there out of fear.
The trick is to learn to tell the difference between the kind of fear that says, I'm scared I might run out of money, which you should actually listen to, and the kind of fear that says, I'm scared I might fail, which you should take as a giant green flashing light to jump.
Cliff jumps teach you what you are capable of in spite of fear. He was like, you know, cliff jumps are fun. They're also terrible. He was like, you're going to fall. You're going to fall for a while. They do take you down and backwards, and you sort of feel like maybe it was a mistake. But then there comes a moment when you're like, hit the bottom and start to climb out. And this sort of climbing out can take you places that the stairs don't even go to. That's the thing about jumping off cliffs. It doesn't just take you a couple flights up on the stairs. It's like a weird elevator that takes you to a whole new place. Cliff jumps teach you who you are and what you are capable of in ways that the stairs can never.

**Modupe Akinola** (4:11)
After saying that, what did you hear from folks?

**Molly Graham** (4:14)
It's been so fun because I think one of my favorite things to do in the world is to help people feel sane in the middle of change. And I think a lot of what I talked about in my TED Talk was like what it feels like when you take a risk, which is first of all the fear that comes before the jump and how you navigate that, and then all of the emotions that come as you jump and as you're falling and you just feel like an idiot all the time and you often are like, did I make a mistake, should I go back? And I think talking about those feelings, talking about the fact that even if you have those feelings, it doesn't mean it was a mistake and that there will be a moment, and it often takes longer than you think it should. It takes six to nine months to feel that moment of competence, but there will be a moment of competence that will help you realize, oh, this is why and this is how much I've learned.