Why Can No One Agree On Evolution, Race & Religion? - Richard Dawkins - #843

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
Hello friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Richard Dawkins. He's an evolutionary biologist, author, and emeritus fellow at the University of Oxford. I spoke to Richard on stage in Austin, Texas as part of his final ever live tour. Then the next day, we got to sit down and discuss all of the things that we didn't have time to talk about the night before. I expect to learn what Richard thinks about the recent rise of cultural Christianity, whether religion was an influential factor on the evolution of humans, what Richard meant by race is a spectrum, sex is pretty damn binary, where people without a religious worldview should get their meaning from, Richard's explanation for evolution for those who don't believe in it, and much more. Can't lie, after spending an hour and a half on stage, really trying to do my absolute best to make a phenomenal conversation, the following day was a little bit more tough. So there's a few left turns in this one, which I actually really appreciated. And I got some answers out of Richard that I didn't think I was going to hear before. Side point, I did manage to get him the night before. You're not going to hear this. But I did get him to agree that he might consider taking psychedelics, which as an 80 year old atheist, evolutionary biologist is pretty cool. So I'm chalking that up as a big W. But today's fun. Richard's an absolute legend. And I really hope that you enjoy. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Richard Dawkins. What do you make of this recent rise of cultural Christianity, given that you were a big part of popularizing atheism over the last few decades? It seems like, have we already forgotten that? Is this sort of coming back around?

**Richard Dawkins** (2:00)
Cultural Christianity means nothing. We're all cultural Christians if we were brought up in a Christian culture, and I was, and you probably were as well. It doesn't mean anything at all. It doesn't mean we believe it. That's what's important, is whether you believe it or not. And I don't believe a word of it, but it is a simple matter of fact of the time, brought up in a Christian culture, so I'm a cultural Christian.

**Chris Williamson** (2:23)
It seems that there are gradations of belief now. I think people that you might not have expected to have used it so much, Jordan Peterson's of the world, the Russell Brands of the world, the Andrew Tate of the world. I think, is it Latin Mass that is one of the quickest growing denominations, especially for young people? It's an entire ceremony that no one, unless you're educated in Latin, that nobody can understand. So beyond just the moniker of cultural Christianity, it seems like some kind of religious belief is increasing.

**Richard Dawkins** (3:00)
Of course, it's an advantage to be in Latin that nobody can understand, because if you can understand it, you realize what nonsense it is.

**Chris Williamson** (3:11)
Some people would say that the reason that they like it is that it's got this sort of like a pomp and ceremony and it makes them feel connected to sort of the roots of what's going on.

**Richard Dawkins** (3:25)
Yes, I get that. Imagine that.

**Chris Williamson** (3:29)
But it does seem, it's interesting to me, that what was rebellious and sort of revolutionary and a bit kind of cutting edge was the atheism conversation, only not so long ago. And there has been some rebranding, whether it's men getting their passports and talking about wanting to convert to Islam, which I think would have been a very surprising thing to have heard, or Christianity too. It seems like that's the on-trend, de jure way to live your life.

**Richard Dawkins** (4:04)
You follow trends in society. I'm not that interested in trends in society. I'm interested in what's true. And if there are trends this way, trends that way, that will be different in a few years' time anyway.

**Chris Williamson** (4:18)
I do think that they are leading indicators of what we may see in future.

**Richard Dawkins** (4:24)
That is possible, or the reverse.

**Chris Williamson** (4:27)
Also true as well. I think we spoke about this last night, and obviously I do need to call it out. We had a great conversation on stage for 60 minutes and then another 30 So some of-

**Richard Dawkins** (4:39)
I do rather wonder how we're going to cover something else.

**Chris Williamson** (4:42)
We covered a lot of ground last night. One of the topics I really wanted to touch back on was much of people's beliefs and world views were pulled apart by typically where they would have got their world view from being religion. If that is no longer as prevalent, if it's been disproven, if it's been criticized to the point where someone can't hold on to their belief anymore, that causes a vacuum that causes them to not have something to believe in in the same way. What do you say to people that sort of miss their life being imbued with meaning in a way where maybe they can't take it from rationality immediately, like you do?