When Presidents and Vice Presidents Don't Get Along

Bob Crawford (0:03)

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Elaine Kamarck (0:09)

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Bob Crawford (0:10)

Hey there, American History Hotliners, Bob Crawford here. Thrilled to be joining you again for another episode of American History Hotline. It's the show where you ask the questions. And the best way to get us a question is to go to our website, americanhistoryhotline.com.

That's americanhistoryhotline.com. Record a voice memo, maybe a video, and we'd love to hear it, we'd love to see it, and we'd love to use it for our show. Okay, today's show. I don't know how many of you out there are a fan of Veep. The old HBO series with Julia Louis-Dreyfus is one of my favorites, but there's a running gag in it. Selena Meyer, the vice president, always finishes calls with her secretary by asking, did the president call? And the secretary always responds flatly, no.

I love that joke, and I think it's appropriate for today's question, which comes from Kelly in North Carolina.

Kelly (1:13)

Hi, Bob. This is Kelly from Mooresville, North Carolina. When did it begin historically that presidents and vice presidents don't get along?

While we've certainly had presidents and vice presidents who do, it seems that it's more outweighed, and in real life and also in movies and TV shows, that the president and the vice president are really kind of adversarial to each other. And I'd love to explore historically when that started and why. Thanks.

Bob Crawford (1:44)

Well, thank you for your question, Kelly, and I have the perfect guest to answer it. Joining me now is Elaine Kamarck. She's a Senior Fellow in Governance Studies and the Director of the Center for Effective Public Management at the Brookings Institution. Elaine, thank you for joining me today.

Elaine Kamarck (2:02)

Well, thank you. It's nice to be here.

Bob Crawford (2:05)

Elaine, I went looking for some quotes of vice presidents about the vice presidency. And the great Daniel Webster, when he was offered the vice presidency in 1839, he said, I do not propose to be buried until I am dead.

Thomas R. Marshall, who was a vice president, he said, he compared it to a man in a cataleptic fit. He cannot speak, he cannot move, he suffers no pain. He is perfectly conscious of all that goes on, but has no part in it. He was Woodrow Wilson's vice president. Of course, John Adams said, I am vice president in this I am nothing, but I may be everything.

Teddy Roosevelt said, I would a great deal rather be anything, say professor of history than vice president. This, of course, is before he ascended to the vice presidency, and then ultimately the presidency with the assassination of William McKinley. All this to say, this is a unique position in the American government. So, let me start off by asking you, are you a fan of the show Veep?

Elaine Kamarck (3:20)

Oh, I love the show Veep. I think it's a terrific show, and I often when I lecture or write about the vice presidency, I often use that anecdote about Selena Meyer going in and saying, did the president call? Nope.

So, it's a great show.

Bob Crawford (3:38)

I have a friend who worked in government for a long time, and he said, often, we think that there's some conspiracy theory going on, or some grand scheme behind what happens with politicians. But usually, Veep is the most accurate portrayal because normally, something changes or goes wrong because a copy machine didn't work, or it's the most mundane thing, and he always felt that Veep truly captured that.

So, I want to get into Kelly's question because to back up a bit, I think we have to understand how the president-vice president relationship evolved. Originally, vice presidents were elected. How did that play out in reality?

Elaine Kamarck (4:24)

Oh, not well. In fact, that was only the first couple of vice presidents, and then they got rid of that right away, okay? And well before the Civil War. And vice presidents were placed on a ticket by the president. Now, here's the most important thing to know about this, is that the relationship changed dramatically after 1972

Because for all of history from about 1831 to until 1972, presidents were elected not in primaries, but in a convention system. And what would happen is states would elect delegates to the Democratic or the Republican Convention. They would travel to a city. And now we're talking, you know, we're talking 1850s, we're talking 1890s, et cetera. They would travel to a city.

They had never seen most of the other politicians before. They communicated by letters mostly, okay, and through newspapers. But they would go to a city and in that city, they would debate who the nominee should be.