What Must Burnham Sacrifice To Make Britain Grow? With Michael Gove

Mia Sorenti (0:00)

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to the conversations, debates and ideas that matter. I'm Mia Sorenti.

What's holding back the British economy? And what will it take to get the country growing again? On today's episode, former cabinet minister and editor of The Spectator, Michael Gove, joins us for the Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook, live at Smith Square Hall. In conversation with BBC broadcaster, Johnny Diamond, Gove discussed the problems facing Britain's economy, exploring what Burnham will have to sacrifice to deliver growth, and argued that neoliberalism is the real backbone of Manchesterism. He also reflects on his tenure in government, what he regrets and whether he'd like to reopen the debate around Brexit.

This episode is part of the Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook, created in partnership with Guinness Global Investors. Guinness Global Investors applies the same spirit of inquiry behind Intelligence Squared to the search for investment success for your portfolio. To find out more, just head to guinnessgi.com. You'll see the link in the episode description. Now let's join our host, BBC broadcaster Johnny Diamond, live at Smith Square Hall.

Michael Gove (1:09)

Thank you very much indeed.

Johnny Diamond (1:11)

Thank you. Good evening and welcome to this Intelligence Squared event. It is, as you heard, part of the Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook series, the series very generously supported by Guinness Global Investors, for which many thanks. Our guest this evening is Lord Gove, Michael Gove. That's the last time I'm going to say Lord Gove. I've been instructed to keep it informal.

One of the most interesting and consequential figures of modern British politics, having occupied senior office and gained experience at most senior levels of government in housing, education, justice and of course, Secretary of State for levelling up. Also in on some of the biggest arguments and naughtiest discussions of contemporary British politics, Brexit, public sector, reform, housing, devolution and of course, the economic future of our country. And witness to some of the most fascinating personalities and leaders of our times as well. He joins us and you join us at a particularly interesting moment. We are of course, what, just a couple of weeks away from the budget. As storm clouds gather over the British economy, an economy that has been relatively robust in some shapes and forms, but suffers from long standing problems, problems that have dragged us down and left the government and its fiscal approach struggling somewhat. The government itself has set out some of the choices it wants to make. There has been discussion, as you know, of abandoning the triple lock on pensions, using that money towards the establishment of a national care service, the creation of a great British grid to speed up electricity connections. There are a huge number of very serious questions. This feels like quite a serious time about the right economic strategy for Britain now, about what the approach of the Chancellor should be for the budget, what role the state should play in energy care infrastructure, how large the state should be, how the state can be reformed, how Britain should position itself in a very uncertain global economy.

To answer some of those questions, Michael Gove, welcome.

Michael Gove (3:29)

Thanks very much, Johnny.

Johnny Diamond (3:30)

Thank you.

Michael Gove (3:30)

Pleasure to be here.

Johnny Diamond (3:31)

Great pleasure to have you here. Just a quick word on the structure.

Michael and I will talk for about an hour. About halfway through that, we have an audience poll, which we'd love you to participate in. About the choices ahead for the Chancellor, some of the broad questions that he is facing and your own preferences on that. And around 8 o'clock, we will throw the floor open to you. Rather than having live microphones rather clumsily passed from hand to hand, we're going to channel your questions, if we may, through the QR code that will come up there at various points in the discussion that precedes the Q&A. And I will then have the questions in front of me to put to Michael. But that is now enough of me, which nobody came to listen to.

Let's turn instead to our guest. Can we start on the economy and your overview of the state of Britain's economy right now, and I guess the constraints that you see upon it?

Michael Gove (4:28)

Well, I think that, as you quite rightly point out, the British economy has great latent strengths, and there is a fundamental resilience. But it is the case that that resilience has taken a battering over time, and it's also the case that while we're not at a crisis point, we're at a very difficult moment. So the first thing that any chance is going to have to do with, as you quite rightly point out, is a bleak fiscal situation. In other words, we're in debt.