What Makes Humans Remarkable in the Age of AI with Vivienne Ming

Vivienne Ming (0:00)

Two job categories with the lowest rates of Alzheimer's are taxi drivers and ambulance drivers, but not bus drivers, because bus drivers drive a route. They don't have to think about it. But taxi and ambulance drivers have to think about navigating through space. I guarantee you, Uber drivers are not getting the same benefit, because they're just following a route, and AI is giving them. And in fact, people who rely the most heavily on automated navigation are starting to show memory problems and early mild cognitive impairment that's indicative of higher rates of dementia. We don't truly have the evidence about chat bots and generative AI, but that's what I'm worried about. This is a technology that isn't like the factory line, and it isn't like the internal combustion engine. This is a technology that does our thinking for us, if we allow it to, and that is really worrisome.

Guy Kawasaki (1:01)

This is Guy Kawasaki and I am the host of the Remarkable People Podcast, and I got to tell you, this book, she just doesn't hold back on tech bros and everybody and idiots. Let me introduce her first. Her name is Vivienne Ming, and she is a theoretical neuroscientist.

I must admit, Vivienne, I don't know what the hell that means, because I understand theoretical, I understand neuroscientists. So is there such a thing as a practical neuroscientist? But anyway, she is an AI pioneer, she's an author, she's an entrepreneur, definitely a provocateur. And her specialty really is the intersection, I think at least, of human potential and technology. And this is her book, although you can see behind her. Her book is called Robot Proof, and we are going to discuss how to become Robot Proof. Welcome to the show, Vivienne.

Vivienne Ming (2:07)

It is so much fun to be here. And I have to say, having a job description like theoretical neuroscience is great because almost nobody knows what it means. It means you can do whatever you want to do. It is the best way to go, although the practical neuroscientists are probably the most of the people. They stick wires into brains and they record things and use rabies retrovirus.

When I discovered that there was a field of neuroscience where you just make stuff up and then train a computer to do it all for you, I just thought that is so much less messy and really cool. Who would have guessed that 25 years later, people would be getting Nobel Prizes in this field? Dumb luck wins out in that case for me.

Guy Kawasaki (2:55)

I must say, to my recollection, I don't think you cited any MRI studies in your entire book.

Vivienne Ming (3:05)

I'm sure we have a very informed listenership here, but looking at functional magnetic resonance imaging to understand what's going on inside of people's heads is actually becoming increasingly important in my work or using other techniques like EEG, because I want to understand how people's brains are responding when they're using AI or in a new book I'm working on, What's the Neuroscience of Trust? These things interest me, but in the moment of writing that book over a period of nearly 10 years, I was really focused on some hard lessons that I'd learned, not just as a scientist, but as a serial entrepreneur in, boy, what you can do is amazing, but what happens most often is alarming.

Guy Kawasaki (3:56)

So as you may have noticed, I like to spend the first few minutes of my podcast basically going down holes and going down blind alleys. I don't feel this moral obligation to get off to a fast start. I like to have a conversation with my guests. And so in that spirit, may I just go on the record and tell you Vivienne, that I freaking love your footnotes.

I read probably 75 books a year. We have 50 guests. I have to read more books than guests because we reject even the people we think we're going to have and all that. But you have the best footnotes of any guest ever on the Remarkable People podcast.

Vivienne Ming (4:43)

Thank you.

Guy Kawasaki (4:43)

Yes.

Vivienne Ming (4:44)

I have to say, I've heard many authors say this before. I don't love writing, but I love having had written.

Guy Kawasaki (4:52)

Yes.

Vivienne Ming (4:53)

That chance to tell your story. And so the slog of going through and writing, honestly, what was a more than twice as long book, that was like the full manuscript I wrote, the only way I could do it is if I could tell dumb jokes and punch up at some people that deserve it as I went and trying to find this balance, how do I get my desire to be the world's most self-indulgent stand-up comic out of the book but still have the voice there as I'm writing?