What Is Intelligence? With David Krakauer

Neil deGrasse Tyson (0:00)

That was quite the overview on what it is to be intelligent. It went places I didn't even know intelligence went.

Chuck Nice (0:07)

Yeah, and for some reason, I still feel stupid.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (0:10)

Coming up, StarTalk Special Edition, everything you need to know about intelligence. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

This is StarTalk Special Edition. Neil deGrasse Tyson, you are a personal astrophysicist. And if it's special edition, it means Gary O'Reilly in the house. Hi, Neil. Hey, former soccer pro, soccer announcer. Of course, we got Chuck Nice, baby.

Chuck Nice (0:45)

That's right, tempest in the teacup.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (0:47)

The Lord of Nice.

Chuck Nice (0:48)

Lord of Nice. All right. Exactly.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (0:50)

So, Gary, what did you and your producers stitch together for today?

Gary O'Reilly (0:55)

Well, with all this talk of artificial intelligence, has everyone stopped to think, what is intelligence in general? That's what we're doing today.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (1:06)

Everybody thinks they know what it is, and no one can really define it.

Chuck Nice (1:08)

That's because they're all dumbasses.

Gary O'Reilly (1:11)

To Chuck's point, how could intelligence evolve and why? What chances are there of beings far smarter than us?

That's a low bar. Are we?

If we are the universe's way of knowing itself, is the universe screwed? Neil? I mean, if we're the best it's got to figure itself out. Maybe I want to know that answer, maybe I don't, but we're gonna ask it anyway.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (1:39)

So, and that quote, I think, is traceable to Carl Sagan might have been in one of the episodes of Cosmos, the original Cosmos. Well, let's find out what our guest has to say. You talk about did intelligence evolve and in what way? We have an evolutionary biologist.

You need them every now and then, straighten things out. And he's also president and the William H. Miller Professor of Complex Systems at the Santa Fe Institute. Of course, that would be in New Mexico.

Yes.

Chuck Nice (2:10)

I'm sorry, you mean New America?

Gary O'Reilly (2:14)

We're spotted, Chuck.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:18)

And he specializes in complexity and intelligence. Join me in welcoming David Krakauer.

Gary O'Reilly (2:25)

David, welcome.

David Krakauer (2:26)

It's wonderful to be back in person.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:28)

In person. We can verify that. Poke him, make sure he's real. I'm here. Not a hologram. Not a hologram.

So I like the fact that you study complex systems, but you have roots in evolutionary biology. Because that's where we are life forms, and that's where it all begins. So could you just shed some luminosity on the evolution of intelligence as we think about it?

David Krakauer (2:55)

Yeah. Well, okay.

So the first question is, what is the relationship between life and intelligence? Can one conceive of a life that wasn't intelligent? Can one consider or conceive of an intelligence that's not alive? I think the latter, yes, and we might talk about that.

But the former, probably no. And so, as soon as you have life, you have some form of intelligence. Okay. So what is that? And I guess the canonical simple argument would be, these are some form of organized matter that can sense the environment and act in a way that increases its representation in the world, either through replication or what have you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:42)

In the interest of its own survival.

David Krakauer (3:44)

In the interest of its own survival. And so, any life form that can sense and behave in a way that's adaptive, we would have to grant has some form of intelligence.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:54)

Okay.

David Krakauer (3:55)

So the interesting theoretical problem here is that life feels a bit binary. You don't say that a flea is less alive than an elephant.

So that's kind of an interesting fact. Whereas intelligence is not. So how does a kind of binary system give rise to a continuous one? And that's kind of the theory challenge for the origin of intelligence.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (4:16)

But, tell me again what you mean by the binarity of this?

David Krakauer (4:19)

So for example, I mean.

Chuck Nice (4:20)

You're either alive or you're not. But that doesn't mean that the level of intelligence you have is dependent on you being alive or not.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (4:26)

I see what you're saying.

Chuck Nice (4:27)

It's a gradation.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (4:28)

So intelligence has a continuum.

You're either alive or dead does not. Got it, okay. Just to clarify that.