He expelled the money changers. So was Jesus anti-capitalist?

Tom Thatcher (0:00)

The Jesus story of money could not live alongside the stories that the people who ran the machine in his day were telling, so they killed him.

Gillian Tett (0:07)

The message from Jesus around money might be described today as pretty anti-capitalist.

Robin Wigglesworth (0:12)

You're trying to insult half of America now, whatever we're doing now, aren't we?

Tom Thatcher (0:16)

One of my own favorite stories are these big urns where people would come and make donations, and this old woman comes up who's got two pennies. That's all that she puts in, and Jesus says, hey, she gave everything she had. Less than a week after he said that, he was dead.

Gillian Tett (0:36)

Today on the story of money, imagine being arrested and executed after you disrupt the operation of a currency market.

Robin Wigglesworth (0:45)

Well, that was the fate of possibly, arguably, the most famous person in history.

This was someone renowned for his wisdom, his compassion, and someone whose teachings inspired one of the great religions of the world. And yet, many stories believe that this act of financial defiance triggered a chain of events that culminated in his brutal death at the age of roughly 33

Gillian Tett (1:12)

Now, we are, of course, talking about that first century Jewish agitator, Jesus of Nazareth. As the Bible said, he stormed into the Temple of Jerusalem and tore into the money changers operating there.

Soon after, the Romans arrested him, tortured him and crucified him.

Robin Wigglesworth (1:32)

But why did Jesus care so much about a bunch of currency traders in the first place?

Was he like an anti-capitalist in the days before capitalism even had a name? And what role did money play in his life, his teachings and his death? Here to tell us that incredible story is Tom Thatcher. Tom, thanks so much for being here on the show with us.

Tom Thatcher (1:56)

Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here. Very exciting. I'm actually, I'm very humble to be asked. Love your show and glad to be here.

Gillian Tett (2:02)

So Tom, you're a lifelong scholar of Jesus as a historical figure. And you've written a couple of books about him, haven't you?

Tom Thatcher (2:09)

I have written 23 books about Jesus as a historical figure. And I've been involved in many research units in the Society of Epilogues. So this has been a topic close to my heart for a long, long time. Yes.

Robin Wigglesworth (2:21)

Well, I mean, Gillian, at 23 books, I'm starting to feel a little bit lazy over here.

Gillian Tett (2:25)

Exactly. You're definitely a slouch, you know.

Tom Thatcher (2:27)

I didn't say they were good, man. I just said there were a lot of them. No, no, no.

Robin Wigglesworth (2:30)

I mean, look, any book takes a heck of a lot of energy. And Tom, you're actually an ordained church minister as well. So your interest in Jesus as a historical figure, it's not just an idle curiosity, is it?

Tom Thatcher (2:44)

It is definitely a deeply personal topic.

For me, it is the driving vision for my own view of money and everything money does and could do. I actually like Jesus' vision for money. I don't like everything he said or did, but I like his vision for money. I wish his story of money could have come to its full conclusion. Unfortunately, Jesus' story of money could not live alongside the stories that the people who ran the machine in his day were telling. So they killed him before we could get a happy ending.

Gillian Tett (3:16)

Well, that's going to be a very interesting discussion. You know, we are conscious that for people of faith, some of this may be a bit sensitive, but it's going to be an interesting angle, both on the story of Jesus, but also the story of money. So welcome to this episode. I'm Gillian Tett.

Robin Wigglesworth (3:33)

And I'm Robin Wigglesworth.

So this episode is about Jesus Christ. But specifically, the historical Jesus, the Jesus of Nazareth, who may be quite different from the man you imagine. But before we get to the man himself, I want to start with that incident. We trailed in the introduction, which comes near the end of his life. Because this incident, this event, is going to be the central focus of our episode. So it happened in Jerusalem at around 30 CE or 30 AD, for the Christians in our audience. And here's how the Gospel of Matthew describes it. Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.