Uncovering the Epstein Story, with Emily Maitlis and Amy Wallace (Part Two)

**Mia Sorrenti** (0:00)
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, Where Great Minds Meet. I'm Senior Producer Mia Sorrenti. In this episode, we return for part two of our live event with journalists Amy Wallace and Emily Maitlis. Wallace and Maitlis joined us recently at Conway Hall to discuss the Jeffrey Epstein case, the life of Virginia Giuffre, and the ongoing fight for accountability. The conversation was hosted by journalist and broadcaster Emily Maitlis.
If you haven't heard part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to catch up. A brief content warning, this episode contains discussions of sexual assault, suicide and trauma throughout.
Now let's return to the conversation live at Conway Hall.

**Emily Maitlis** (0:41)
I was with another Epstein survivor this afternoon, and it's quite interesting to put in context just what the 90s, 2000s felt like because we feel very connected now, wherever you are in the world, you can probably check online or call an Uber or contact somebody. You've got your emergency button in the palm of your hand the whole time.
She was explained to me that when she was taken to West Palm Beach, the ticket was booked, the car arrived. She didn't really see her passport. She had no idea where she'd ended up. She didn't even know what the calling code was to call out of America. It strikes me, of course, that Virginia would have been a very similar situation. The loneliness of those moments where you don't even know who the other people are that are going through this. You probably know that there are other victims, but you're not even able to reach out.

**Amy Wallace** (1:52)
They were really discouraged from talking to each other. They were very much discouraged from connecting. If they were on the island together, they were very much discouraged from forming any friendships.
And to your point, I mean, Ghislaine buys Virginia her first phone, that she'd never had a phone, because Virginia takes a walk one day around New York. She's exploring New York City for the first time and loses track of time. And when she comes back to the mansion, they're really outraged at her. They're angry that she has been gone so long. And so Ghislaine gets her a phone so that they can keep her on a leash. Yeah, yeah.

**Emily Maitlis** (2:37)
And did they ever talk to each other? I mean, did they, now, as you said, they, the term they use is survivor sisters, so trauma buddies, they understand each other's pain hugely. But at the time, they will have crossed over, whether it was in the mansion, whether it was on the island.

**Amy Wallace** (2:53)
No, I mean, there's like a really moving story in the book. Marika Cartuni is another victim, survivor.
And what happens after Epstein dies, and however he dies, is that the judge, they could have just vacated the prosecution, the person they were going to prosecute is dead. But the judge, who is a former therapist, I think, he was hip to how much the women had lost. So he says, we're going to have a hearing and let every survivor have their say about this, which they didn't have to do. And so many women flew in, and were flown in, actually, by the federal government. I think that the DOJ paid for it. Different DOJ than we have now. And women met.

**Emily Maitlis** (3:45)
They'd be deporting them now.

**Amy Wallace** (3:46)
Yeah.
So, so Marika and Virginia meet. And everybody's, Marika says, I'm trying to figure out who my, the woman who recruited me is. And she knew her first name, and she remember what she looked like. And Virginia said, I know who that is. And she gave her the last name.
And there was, there was this constant piecing together of what was your experience? When were you there? Oh, I was there, but I wasn't there. You know, people, girls were coming in and out at different times. Even if you were abused around the same time as another person, you didn't necessarily know them. So there was this coming together that partly that hearing enabled, which is really moving. And that, I think that's really the beginning of the Survivor Sisters text chains, chat chain. They all communicate still on a single text string. Yeah.

**Emily Maitlis** (4:50)
So let's go back to the moment where Virginia realizes that as unbearable as her life is, it's about to get even worse because Gelen and Jeffrey are planning for Virginia to have their baby. She's going to carry their baby, but never hold it, essentially.

**Amy Wallace** (5:12)
She's going to take care of it, but she's never going to, if they ever have a falling out, the baby will stay with them. They want her to be a nanny. They don't want to raise a baby. It's too much work.