Unabridged Interview: Oliver Burkeman

**Lee C. Camp** (0:02)
Hello, friends, Lee C. Camp. You're listening to No Small Endeavor. This is one of our unabridged best of episodes with Oliver Burkeman, author of the New York Times bestseller, Four Thousand Weeks, Time Management for Mortals.
This is one of those interviews and books I have continued to ruminate on in a healthy way, I think, since having had the interview and read the book.
I think that especially his insight about paying attention to pain, and the way that may actually reduce suffering, has been one that has especially stuck with me. You'll get that in the third part of the interview, I think it is.
Just generally speaking, his counsel to learn to pay attention to life, and the beauty of the fact that life is, that rather than obsessing quite so much about the circumstances of life, to simply receive the gift of life itself, as the gift it is, in fact, is. And that was a terrible sentence, but I think you know what I meant. Anyway, enjoy this interview, Unabridged, with Oliver Burkeman. Hey friends, Lee here. If you enjoy our conversations at the intersection of faith, purpose, and living well, then I have the perfect podcast recommendation for you, With and For, hosted by Dr. Pam King. With and For's latest season brings together psychology and spiritual wisdom in a way that feels thoughtful, grounded, deeply human, and it's hosted by my friend Dr. Pam King, a developmental psychologist and ordained minister who offers practical guidance towards a life of thriving. I'd recommend starting with their episode featuring Parker J. Palmer, world-renowned writer, speaker, activist, Quaker elder, who focuses on issues in education, spirituality, and social change. A moving and instructive conversation, can't recommend it enough. Also, check out With and For's special summer series of wisdom practices, released each Monday. They're short exercises shared by guests that will become a toolkit for thriving. Consider them your experiment in becoming more fully alive. So go ahead, follow With and For, hosted by Dr. Pam King, wherever you're listening now.

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**Oliver Burkeman** (2:39)
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**Lee C. Camp** (3:14)
Oliver Burkeman is the author of the New York Times bestseller, Four Thousand Weeks, which we'll be discussing today. He's also the author of other books including The Antidote, Happiness for People Who Cannot Stand, Positive Thinking. For years, he wrote a popular column for The Guardian entitled, This Column Will Change Your Life.
In his email newsletter, The Imperfectionist, he writes about productivity, mortality, the power of limits, and building a meaningful life in an age of distraction. He lives now in the North York Moors. Welcome, Oliver.

**Oliver Burkeman** (3:49)
Thank you very much for inviting me. Hi.

**Lee C. Camp** (3:51)
It's a delight to have you. I love your book and I think one of the reasons I love your book is that you confess being a productivity geek and I too confess to that.
And you and me both, for example, getting rather obsessed with people like David Allen's book, Getting Things Done.
But how do you get from a book on, how do you get to this current book from being obsessed with productivity?

**Oliver Burkeman** (4:25)
Well, I think it's a pretty straightforward journey really, but it's the kind of journey where you come to the end of a trail, and then you need something else, right? I think what happened was that I had explored every productivity technique going, read every book.
I was writing a column, as you mentioned, for the Guardian newspaper. One of the things I got to do was to try out all sorts of different systems for trying to get in control of my time. I think there's actually that phenomenon, isn't there? Where it's precisely because you do get to try everything out, and none of it brings the kind of salvation that you were looking for, just to get immediately theological here. It's precisely because you do get to do that, that you can have maybe some new fresh thoughts or a different perspective that I'm trying to communicate in this book. If I hadn't gone all the way down that rabbit hole, I might still be here thinking that next week I was going to find the perfect system. And there is a little part of me that still hopes that next week I'll find the perfect system.