Unabridged Interview: Annie Jacobsen

**Lee C. Camp** (0:02)
Hello, friends. Lee C. Camp here. You're listening to No Small Endeavor. This is our unabridged interview with Annie Jacobsen. I began to be familiar with Annie's work when one day I saw one of my sons, our oldest son Chandler, reading the book entitled Nuclear War, A Scenario. I asked him about the book and he told me what it was, namely a sketch of what would happen, 72 minutes that would follow the first launch of an ICBM Intercontinental Ballistic Missile from a nuclear power toward the US.
The way he described it, I said, please hurry up and finish reading that.
I want to read that.
After I read it, I was so taken and disturbed and it was such a compelling storytelling and really gets your attention. Deeply well-researched. It's sold in the non-fiction section. The scenario that she sketched out, of course, non-fiction hasn't happened, is speculating, but it's the same sort of depiction of a possibility, a possible scenario, as she says in the interview, that the Pentagon does in its own war games of saying, okay, if this happened, this could happen, this could happen, this could happen, and so forth. And so it's a very troubling read of the 72 minutes that would follow the first launch of an ICBM. And as she says in the interview, this realization that the world could end, as we know it by this afternoon. And so it's a very compelling, troubling read. And then her most recent, once we reached out, we found out that she was having a new book released this summer called Biological War, A Scenario. And so we discussed both of these books in this interview. It's a really fascinating and again, troubling, I keep repeating myself, troubling interview.
But the remarkable thing is that Annie holds on to a hopefulness in her own self that she doesn't do this work out of a doom, a sort of doom scrolling attitude. But instead of saying we must face the facts that until we face something, we cannot change anything. And so again, a really fascinating interview. I think that you'll find this remarkable. Annie has about 15 plus years reporting on national security. She's a 2016 Pulitzer Prize finalist, has eight books under her belt that she's done all sorts of research on the military, military secrets, intelligence secrets, and various government programs. And in all of her books, she's been given and sought out just really remarkable access to government officials and is then able to report on these things with rigorous detail. Enjoy, though enjoy is not the right word. I hope that you'll find this compelling. Hey, friends, Lee here. If you enjoy our conversations at the intersection of faith, purpose, and living well, then I have the perfect podcast recommendation for you With and For, hosted by Dr. Pam King. With and For's latest season brings together psychology and spiritual wisdom in a way that feels thoughtful, grounded, deeply human, and it's hosted by my friend Dr. Pam King, a developmental psychologist and ordained minister who offers practical guidance towards a life of thriving. I'd recommend starting with our episode featuring Parker J. Palmer, world renowned writer, speaker, activist, Quaker elder, who focuses on issues in education, spirituality, and social change. A moving and instructive conversation, can't recommend it enough. Also, check out With and For's special summer series of wisdom practices, released each Monday. They're short exercises shared by guests that will become a toolkit for thriving. Consider them your experiment in becoming more fully alive. So go ahead, follow With and For, hosted by Dr. Pam King, wherever you're listening now.

**SPEAKER_2** (3:43)
This is Tonya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billy Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

**Lee C. Camp** (4:13)
Annie Jacobsen, welcome to No Small Endeavor.

**Annie Jacobsen** (4:16)
Thank you very much for having me.

**Lee C. Camp** (4:18)
I have told you before we started taping that probably about a month ago, my oldest son Chandler was reading your book Nuclear War, A Scenario. And I said, what is that? And he told me and I said, please get done quickly so that I can read that.
And then as soon as I finished it, I asked our team if we could try to talk with you. So I'm so grateful to get to be with you. And I have just finished your most recent book that's coming out this summer, Biological War, A Scenario. So I'm grateful for your work and grateful to get to visit with you today. I wonder for those who are unfamiliar, if you could begin to perhaps, let's first start with Nuclear War, A Scenario, and you sketch the kind of scenario that you are depicting and the razor thin edge that human civilization kind of sits on at this moment.