The United States' Most Wanted Hacker - Brett Johnson - #503

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
What's happening, people? Welcome back to the show. My guest today is Brett Johnson. He's referred to by the United States Secret Service as the original internet godfather. He was the founder and leader of Counterfeit Library and Shadow Crew, and has been a central figure in the cybercrime world for almost 20 years. Brett has been a lifelong criminal. He was committing crimes from inside the Secret Service's own offices. Then, after being sent to prison, he escaped from prison and went on the run to Disneyland, all while defrauding millions. This story is one of the wildest things that I've ever heard. Expect to learn what it feels like to be on the FBI's Most Wanted list, what actually happened with the Solar Winds hack, how Brett was involved in the origins of the Darknet, his thoughts on Ross Ulbricht and Silk Road, the closest calls Brett had to being killed, how he evaded capture for so long, whether he thinks Julian Assange is a criminal or a hero, and much more. This guy is like something out of a comic book or a movie. He's a complete force of nature and this story is absolutely insane. Sit back and enjoy. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Brett Johnson.
Brett Johnson, welcome to the show.

**Brett Johnson** (1:36)
Chris, hey, great to be here. I appreciate you bringing me on.

**Chris Williamson** (1:40)
What does it mean to be on the United States Most Wanted List? Is there a particular type of criteria that you need to meet for that? Is it like being top 10 in the billboard charts?

**Brett Johnson** (1:49)
Well, I will say you did not probably do well in Sunday school. So you're not a good guy if you've made the United States Most Wanted List. You are the bane of society at that moment in time. And me, I mean, for those who don't know the Secret Service, they called me the original Internet Godfather. I got that title. I was committed. I committed 39 felonies. I was placed on the United States Most Wanted List. I had an escape from prison. And what the big thing of all that was is I built and ran the first organized cybercrime community. It was called Shadow Crew, precursor of today's darknet and darknet markets that US Most Wanted. So Shadow Crew makes the front cover of Forbes August 2004 Headline, Who's Stealing Your Identity? October 26, 2004, United States Secret Service arrested 33 people, six countries, six hours. I'm the guy publicly mentioned as getting away. I headed that ring. They picked me up four months later. They gave me a job. And I'm the guy that continues to break the law from inside Secret Service offices for the next 10 months until they find out about it. I take off on a cross-country crime spree, still $600,000 in four months, wake up one morning, United States Most Wanted, and that gets your attention.
It's one of those old shit moments. I was in Las Vegas the night before I'd stolen 160,000 out of ATMs, woke up that next morning, and there's my name on Carter's Market with US. Most Wanted beside of it, and I sat there and stared at it for a while. Finally, I sat out loud. I was like, well, Brett, you've made the United States Most Wanted list. What now? And I was like, I'm going to Disney World. So that's what Idiot did, went to Disney World, lasted about six weeks, Secret Service. They came and got me, arrested me, sent me to prison, then I escaped. Your question, what's it like to be United States Most Wanted? It is one of the scariest things on the planet. You, I was already on the run, but you don't have any friends, you're constantly watching your back. Every day is the highest high and the lowest low. You make it through the day without being arrested, and you're like, yes, I made it, but you're constantly scared of everything. I would, you know, I just take these long drives. You couldn't talk to anybody. I would, there's, you've seen Breaking Bad, right?

**Chris Williamson** (4:12)
Yes.

**Brett Johnson** (4:13)
So there's a scene that last season of Breaking Bad where Brian Cranston's in a cabin and Robert Forster's bringing these supplies. And Cranston looks at Forster and he's like, will you just stay and talk to me? And he pays him like $18,000 to talk to him for an hour. And that is really a very truthful moment because I used to pay escorts, not for sex, but to just sit there and fucking talk to me.
And that's, I mean, it's just a, it's a completely different life and mentality when you're on that type of list.