The Uncomfortable Science Of Sex Differences - Steve Stewart-Williams - #1120

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
Do you think that you could have published this book six years ago?

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (0:03)
I think that I could have, but it would have been a less wise move. I think it would have gone down a lot worse six years ago. Things are kind of called off a little bit, I think.

**Chris Williamson** (0:13)
Why is talking about sex differences so controversial?

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (0:16)
Well, it's a good question, and I think that it's a few things. I mean, sometimes it surprises me, because sometimes I think a lot of the differences that we're talking about, they're really quite modest differences. They are often differences and preferences rather than cognitive abilities, so they're kind of neutral as far as I'm concerned. If anything, I think probably they put men in a worse light than women. Sometimes it surprises me, but I think really the main reason is a long history of sexism against women. I think that we've got quite a long, science as well, has a bit of a sordid history in terms of how we've spoken about women, especially in the 1800s. I've got a quote, one of my favorite quotes, one of my favorite examples of this is from a scientist by the name of Gustave Le Bon, and he wrote that, sure, there are some women who are as intellectually accomplished as your typical man, but they're about as rare as a two-headed gorilla, and so therefore we don't really need to think about them.
Stuff like that in our background is, I guess, not surprising. There are people a little bit nervous about talking about evolved sex differences, a little bit worried that if we start doing that, we're going to open the door to that kind of sexism. I think they're wrong to worry about that. I think that really the science of sex differences has disproved those kind of ideas.
I think as well that we can treat men and women respectfully and as humanely and treat them well, even if men and women are not identical, on average, on every single train.

**Chris Williamson** (1:50)
Yeah. I suppose the history of sciences to sex differences, what the Nazi party is to behavioral genetics.

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (1:57)
Right. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. I do think that science is the solution to the early sexism rather than a continuation of it.

**Chris Williamson** (2:05)
Yeah. That's a great way to put it. Why is it important to study sex differences then? Why should anybody care?

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (2:11)
I think lots of reasons. The main reason for me is I think it's just deeply, deeply fascinating. I would say it's-

**Chris Williamson** (2:17)
It's the best.
It's the best. Me and you fell in love with the same buck, The Moral Animal by Rory Wright. It changed my life.

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (2:23)
Yeah, likewise. It changed my life. It shaped the rest of my career. Just I think it's deeply fascinating.
I remember when I read that book, that's when I fell in love with evolutionary psychology, and in particular, I fell in love with the evolutionary psychology of sex differences. I got the same feeling that I did when I was a kid, and I first understood how the phases of the moon work, and everything just clicked into place. Suddenly, the whole thing made sense.

**Chris Williamson** (2:51)
That is why it looks that way. That is why people are different in that way.

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (2:56)
Exactly. It all made sense. It was clear that it was true, and just instant insight.

**Chris Williamson** (3:04)
Even as you're saying it, I can hear this critic preparedness inside of my mind going, why would both of us when we read a book be so enamored by sex differences, dot, dot, dot. That must be because you are secretly a sexist, who is looking to try and keep people in their place and not ever have any progress, and dot, dot, dot. You know what I mean? The conversation around this has become so tarnished.
That it's-

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (3:33)
An accusatory.

**Chris Williamson** (3:35)
Yes.
You can't have an interest in something which is fundamental and fascinating, and really important, so that people aren't trying to fight against something so that we don't fully account for and understand why behavior unfolds in particular ways that can allow us to have a better society, a society that's got outcomes that's more close to what we want. Fascinating.

**Steve Stewart-Williams** (3:57)
Yeah, it is.
I agree with that and I think, yeah, sorry, I just meant blank. What was I going to say about that? Not at all.

**Chris Williamson** (4:10)
Just why is it important to study sex?