The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:00)
I'm curious what it is that PMs do that annoy engineers most.

**Camille Fournier** (0:04)
Hoarding credit. PMs, they tend to be the front-facing person for initiative. Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work, because the PM takes all the glory and all the credit for the project that they really worked very hard on.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:18)
I find the best PMs are the ones that talk the least and encourage other people to do the presenting.

**Camille Fournier** (0:22)
The next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with PMs when they just don't understand the details and act like they don't matter, it just shows a real lack of empathy for the work that engineers are doing. I think it really can be very off-putting.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:34)
Is there any insight you can give about what people maybe miss about the motivation of engineers? What gets them excited?

**Camille Fournier** (0:40)
A lot of people assume that engineers just write code and don't underestimate the ability for your engineers to want to understand the business problem, want to understand the customer problem. I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having ideas.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (1:00)
Today, my guest is Camille Fournier. Camille is one of the most respected technology executives in tech and the author of The Manager's Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating your career and moving into management. Over the course of her career, she was CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase, and Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma. She is also releasing a new book later this year called Platform Engineering, A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders, which you can actually pre-order today, and we get into this topic in the latter half of the conversation. We also dig into what PMs do that most annoys engineers, and how to stop doing these things, why major rewrites are often a trap, why you may want to be doing fewer one-on-ones, what most surprises people when they become a manager, and some really useful heuristics for how long you should stay in IC before you make the leap into management, and tons more, this episode covers a lot of ground, and will help you think about management, platform teams, team culture, and the PM and end relationship in a whole new way. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Camille Fournier.
Camille, thank you so much for being here. welcome to the podcast.

**Camille Fournier** (2:23)
Thank you so much for having me.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (2:24)
It's my pleasure. I want to start by asking you a question that is on the minds of a lot of product managers is, how to be less annoying as a product manager? I know you work with a lot of engineers over time. I'm curious what it is that PMs do that annoy engineers most, and how can PMs stop doing that?

**Camille Fournier** (2:42)
I would say there are a few things that PMs do that annoy engineers. To be clear, I am sure that engineers annoy PMs just as much.
I realize this is a two-way street. I think there are some things that are really easy to fix, and some things that are maybe a little bit harder. The easy things to fix are hoarding credit. Sometimes I think PMs, because they tend to be the front-facing person for initiatives, they're talking to customers, they're talking to the executive team, whatever. Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work because the PM takes all the glory and all the credit for the project that they really worked very hard on. Making every effort to be credit sharing and inclusive at the engineering team and giving them the opportunity to speak about their contributions when it makes sense, I think those are all things that PMs can do to avoid what I consider a pretty easy annoyance. Just like, don't pour it all out of credit, this is not just you, right? There's a lot of work that has to go into that. I think that sort of dovetails into the next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with PMs, when they just don't understand the details and act like they don't matter. I think this is just a little bit of a cultural difference, right? So like, if you are, I mean, even managers is just normal managers, right? People like me who are looking across really broad areas or you're, you know, you're, you have to be kind of big picture focused. And you forget that engineering done successfully really is all about the details. And you don't necessarily have to understand all of those details. But when you act like they don't matter and you don't care about them, and it's just like, I don't care. Just like, tell me when you can get this done, or why is it going to take so long? Oh my God. Like, this just seems like such a little thing. You know, it just shows a real lack of kind of empathy for the work that engineers are doing. And I think it really can be very off-putting, even though I will totally agree that sometimes you're going to get details that don't really matter, and you just have to be a little bit patient in those circumstances.