The Surprising Science of Human Goodness | Psychologist, Dr. Jamil Zaki

Jamil Zaki (0:01)

So, cynicism is on the rise. Is there any way that you can see that cynicism is standing in your way? Is it stopping you from becoming the person you want to be? I'm not asking you to put on rose-colored glasses. I just want you to realize that you're probably wearing mud-colored glasses right now, and skepticism is just an attempt to take them off.

Michael Gervais (0:24)

There's an age-old question.

Are humans fundamentally good or evil? Are we hard-wired towards greed and cynicism or towards compassion and goodness? welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Our guest today, Dr. Jamil Zaki, is a leading psychologist and empathy researcher who has dedicated his career to exploring this question. Jamil is at the forefront of research at Stanford's Social Neuroscience Lab, where he's exploring how we understand emotions, conform to social norms, and choose to do good. In a world where cynicism seems to be on the rise, Jamil offers a different perspective, empathy as a remedy. His latest book, Hope for Cynics, The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, lays out a practical roadmap to transform cynicism into hopeful skepticism, an approach that could make our world a bit better. If you're looking to create lasting positive change in your life and those around you, this episode is for you. So with that, let's dive right into this conversation with Dr. Jamil Zaki. Jamil, it's a real pleasure to have you on Finding Mastery. I have loved your work on empathy and now cynicism. And like, this is awesome. Like your work at the neuroscience lab at Stanford is world class. So it's a real treat to have you on today. And just before we dive in, just let me check in, like, how are you doing?

Jamil Zaki (1:59)

Well, first, thanks, Mike. The feeling is completely mutual. I love the show and it's just a pleasure to be here. You know, I'm in a reflective mood, which is very common for me in early July. I started my lab at Stanford 12 years and one week ago.

So, every year at around this time, I take stock and think about, one, how lucky I am to do the science that I do with people in my tiny community, and two, just what I've learned. And it's just a great time for me to think about how the passage of time works and how mysterious it feels.

Michael Gervais (2:43)

I mean, I'm so glad that you responded in that way, rather than just saying, Yeah, I'm good. How are you? You know, so, like, just to get a sense of, like, where you're at right now. So, in a reflective, contemplative state, it sounds like.

Jamil Zaki (3:00)

That's right. Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Gervais (3:01)

Yeah. So, let me just, like, say congrats on this book. Okay, because I do want to talk about it. Hope for Cynics, it's like, one, I just want to talk about the title and the subtitle, because I've loved every word, that there's tension in almost every word. Hope for Cynics. It's really great. The Surprising Science of Human Goodness. It's really surprising the way that you would put that. And I know how hard titling a book is. And so, I just wanted to, like, double click. Did you, how did the title come forward for you?

Jamil Zaki (3:36)

You're right, first of all, and I know you know this, but titles are hard work. And I think for me, I wanted to capture the exact tension that you're referring to. And part of that tension for me is very personal. So as you know, Mike, for a long time, I've studied the science of human goodness in one way or another. My lab and I study empathy, compassion, kindness, togetherness, you name it. When you study those things, you also end up studying their opposites. So we also study callousness and cruelty and loneliness. But in general, what we find is that people are enormously compassionate, that they value connection with each other over almost anything else in life, and that when we do for others, we also do for ourselves. So the punchline of our work is in essence that there's a lot of good in us, and it does good for us. And being a sort of ambassador for that science over the last two decades, I think that in whatever small corner of the world people listen to me, I've become a sort of representative of that sort of positive glow, that sunny side of human nature. And yet this whole time I've lived with a secret which is that I myself, although I believe the science fiercely, sometimes have a hard time feeling hopeful. I turn out to be secretly quite cynical myself. So this title, Hope for Cynics, was kind of meant as a almost manifestation. I wanted to feel that I could have hope, that I could re-inject it in my life, even though ironically that's never been very easy for me.