The Supreme Court v. Peyote

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

More Perfect is supported by Earth Justice. Earth Justice knows how powerful the law can be as a tool for change. As a national legal non-profit, Earth Justice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who have taken on thousands of cases on behalf of our planet. They've even argued in front of the Supreme Court and won. The amazing thing is, Earth Justice represents non-profits and communities free of charge.

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SPEAKER_2 (0:29)

I'm Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex and Money. And I'm hosting Hold On, a series of National Live call-in specials from WNYC about our mental health. Join me as we talk together.

Listen wherever you get podcasts.

Julia Longoria (0:53)

I'm Julia Longoria, this is More Perfect.

The first time I ever walked into the Supreme Court, it kind of felt like church. You walk through oversized doors into a hall of white marble with high arched ceilings. People speak to each other in hushed tones, awaiting the words of nine civil servants in robes who strive to answer to a higher power of sorts. The law. Over the last few years, a number of religious people have been trying to tell the Supreme Court that their God puts them above the law.

SPEAKER_5 (1:47)

Clear win for Jack Phillips of Denver, who said baking a cake for a same-sex couple would violate his Christian beliefs.

SPEAKER_6 (1:53)

The Supreme Court saying that Catholic organizations do not have to comply with these anti-discrimination laws.

SPEAKER_7 (2:00)

This is a big legal cause of conservatives in America, which is telling religious institutions and religious people that they don't have to follow the laws that everyone else has to follow.

Julia Longoria (2:12)

Just this term, they accepted another case where a Christian wedding website designer is asking the court if she can duck an anti-discrimination law and deny her services to same-sex couples.

Over and over, the court keeps taking on this same kind of case and saying, yeah, it's okay if you sidestep the law, but just this one time. They stopped short of making a sweeping statement about our freedom to do that. The last time they made a sweeping statement about our right to freely exercise our religion, it was not pretty. People across the political spectrum criticized the court for weakening our First Amendment. It was in 1990, and it involved a man named Al Smith.

This man is not Al Smith. Just so I have it on tape, can you say just who you are?

Garrett Epps (3:15)

I'm Garrett Epps, and I teach Constitutional Law at the University of Oregon.

Julia Longoria (3:20)

When I was looking into Al Smith's very controversial case, everybody told me, you got to talk to Garrett Epps.

Garrett Epps (3:26)

I had the great good luck a quarter century ago to meet and interview Smith.

Julia Longoria (3:32)

Al Smith died in 2014, but much of the drama of his case, where he broke a state drug law for religious purposes, took place in Oregon, where Garrett Epps lives. I can't thank you enough for like, you know, picking me up at the airport.

Garrett Epps (3:49)

You've been waiting.

Julia Longoria (3:53)

For a scholar of the law, Garrett had an unusually intimate look into the personal drama behind this case. He still remembers the first time he met Al Smith.

Garrett Epps (4:03)

It was quite dramatic. My son was at Roosevelt Middle School here in Eugene. They had a thing called the Cultural Heritage Fair.

And every sixth grader does a little poster about what they consider to be their cultural heritage. It's fascinating to see what they pick.

Julia Longoria (4:20)

Garrett says he was walking around the fair.

One kid did a poster on the gold miners in her family. There was his son's poster about their family's five generations of lawyers.

Garrett Epps (4:31)

And there was this booth with this distinguished-looking, very impressive old man sitting in a chair. He is the poster, right, the living human being.

This young girl, she says, this is my father, Al Smith.

Julia Longoria (4:48)

Everybody brought posters and you brought your dad.

Ka'ila Farrell-Smith (4:50)

I would do that, yeah, I would definitely do that. I would be like, dad, come on, there's a school thing.

Julia Longoria (4:56)

That girl was Ka'ila Farrell-Smith, Al's daughter. She still lives in the area.

Ka'ila Farrell-Smith (5:02)

He was a very dark-skinned man, long black hair. He always had his cowboy hat. He kind of got into the super Indian look.

People were proud to be Indians again. And then he always had these red Nikes, like high tops.