The Roy Cohn Playbook, from McCarthyism to Trump

Terry Gross (0:00)

This is Fresh Air, I'm Terry Gross. Back when Donald Trump was getting his start as a real estate developer in his father's business, wanting to branch out from apartments in the boroughs to more ambitious buildings in Manhattan, and trying to find a place for himself among wealthy New Yorkers, celebrities and power brokers, his lawyer and mentor was the infamous unethical Roy Cohn. Cohn's rules became Trump's rules, writes my guest Kai Bird in his new biography of Cohn called American Scoundrel. Kai Bird also co-wrote the definitive biography of Robert Oppenheimer called American Prometheus, which was the basis of Christopher Nolan's Oscar-winning film Oppenheimer. Early in Roy Cohn's career, he prosecuted Julius and Ethel Rosenberg on charges of espionage. They were sent to the electric chair. In the 1950s, when Senator Joe McCarthy led a subcommittee that investigated and smeared alleged communists and gay people, ruining their careers and sometimes their lives, Cohn was the subcommittee's legal counsel. This in spite of Cohn being a closeted gay man himself. Cohn moved on to a more lucrative career as the lawyer for leaders of New York's crime families. He was connected to several prominent New York politicians and helped Ronald Reagan get elected president. Cohn was indicted by the Justice Department on three occasions of bribery, perjury and extortion and other white collar crimes and was always acquitted. But in 1986, after being accused of bribery and fraud, he was disbarred. This was just a few weeks before he died of AIDS, which he always denied having claiming it was liver cancer. Bird says, Cohn's story is important because of what it teaches us about the fragile character of American democracy.

Kai Bird, welcome to Fresh Air and congratulations on the biography.

You say that Roy Cohn's rules became Trump rules. Now, there were a couple of Cohn rules that became Trump rules that I was familiar with like never admit you were wrong, deny, deny, deny, and then when there are charges against you, delay, delay, delay.

Can you think of an example where all three were used by Roy Cohn?

Kai Bird (2:22)

Yeah, during the time in the 60s when he was indicted three times, Roy Cohn delayed the courtroom proceedings as often as he could. He denied the allegations. He attacked the judge in particular by name.

He followed these rules throughout his life and he was a routine rule breaker. You know, the rules were for the little guy, not for him.

Terry Gross (2:48)

So did all of that help him get off on those charges?

Kai Bird (2:52)

Well, the evidence was really quite overwhelming. I argue in the book along with my co-author, my wife Susan Goldmark, that he was partly just damn lucky.

You know, on one trial, a juror's father suddenly fell dead and the judge felt compelled to declare a mistrial.

On another occasion, Roy's own lawyer suffered a heart attack in the courtroom, just as he was about to give the summation. And the trial judge was going to declare a recess, and Roy steps forward and says, Judge, I'll do my own summation. And he did. And this was to his advantage, of course, because he had not chosen to take the witness stand, so he hadn't been subjected to cross-examination. But he was allowed over two days to spend seven hours defending himself. And he did so brilliantly. And apparently got some of the jurors weeping. And they acquitted him, 12 to

Terry Gross (3:55)

Okay. Other rules, like sue, counter sue, or threaten to.

And basically send the message that whether you win or lose, it's going to be a headache if you don't give in.

Kai Bird (4:08)

So, this was routine, you know, he left unpaid debts all over Manhattan for little things, like dry cleaners, his liquor bills, limousine bills. And when sued in small claims court, you know, he would delay delay, and eventually the people he owed money to would give up and or settle for a dime on the dollar.

And he was shameless.

Terry Gross (4:38)

So, what lessons do you think President Trump learned from Roy Cohn about paying bills and paying taxes?

Kai Bird (4:49)

He copied this behavior. He too was notorious for not paying his bills, and sort of using the negotiating tactic of delay delay in order to bargain down the bill in question. And famously, you know, Donald Trump, we don't know what taxes he's paid, and the little that we do know indicate that he has somehow managed to find tax shelters and pays very little, comparatively speaking.

Terry Gross (5:18)

Another Roy Cohn rule, don't tell me the law, tell me the judge, because he knew how to, like, which judge would be favorable to him, or which judge he could manipulate. I assume that's what he meant?