The Real Reason Why We Can’t Stop Scrolling with Oprah and Dr. Anna Lembke

**Oprah Winfrey** (0:00)
When it comes to tech, when does a daily habit cross over into addiction?

**Dr. Anna Lembke** (0:05)
This has crossed the threshold from a bad habit into a mental illness.

**Oprah Winfrey** (0:11)
I hear you've racked up over $30,000 in credit card debt. What do you think is at the root of your shopping addiction?

**Safat** (0:18)
I feel unfulfilled in many aspects of my life, and instead of sitting with the discomfort, I resort to, let me find something to buy.

**Oprah Winfrey** (0:29)
You spend as much as seven hours a day playing video games. What is it about gaming for you?

**Deborah** (0:35)
A lot of the game is rewarding, but also low lows can happen all within a 20-minute span.

**Oprah Winfrey** (0:41)
I hear that you've lost more than $100,000 on sports betting apps. I know you dropped out of three colleges, you were lying, you were stealing from your parents. What is it about online gambling that makes it so hard to quit?

**Matt** (0:56)
It's that adrenaline rush. It could be compared to someone addicted to drugs, chasing that original high.

**Dr. Anna Lembke** (1:03)
Now we've entered into addicted brain. We need to use more of our drug in more potent forms, not to get high, but just to level the balance and feel normal.

**Oprah Winfrey** (1:14)
It's like the heroin addict coming off of the heroin.
And that is what is happening to your children when you try to take away the phones. That's what's happening to you when you can't get yourself, and you can't stop scrolling, just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. Yes.
Hi, everybody. I'm glad to be here with you on The Oprah Podcast. Over 3 million of you watched or listened to our episode on Gen Z tech addiction. Thank you for that. But as we're learning, it's not just one generation or group. Tech addiction can hook anybody, and a lot of people are hooked right now, at all ages, no matter your circumstances. And today on this podcast, I want to ask these questions. What's behind these addictions? What's happening inside our brains? Are we defenseless or can we actually do something about it? I'll be talking to people who are addicted to gaming, online gambling, and even shopping. That's a biggie for a lot of women. But first, here's a quick look at some of the moments from that episode that struck a chord.

**Dr. Nisha Glenn** (2:19)
So my name is Dr. Nisha Glenn. This is my son, Amir Jenkins. He started his gaming at about five or six. When he got in high school, that's when I knew it was an addiction. He would not brush his teeth. He would not eat.

**Deborah** (2:32)
It was strictly.

**Oprah Winfrey** (2:34)
Amir.

**Dr. Nisha Glenn** (2:35)
I mean, nothing, no showers in there on the game 24 hours a day.

**Oprah Winfrey** (2:41)
Can you take us to the point of understanding what that feels like when you're sort of caught up in the obsessiveness, obsession of it?

**Amir Jenkins** (2:51)
I would say you almost forget where you are in a sense.
Like when I play the game, I literally forget I'm in a house sometimes. It's so virtual, so intimate and, you know, it's free, a judge free zone as well.

**SPEAKER_8** (3:09)
I was exposed to corn at the age of eight and have struggled with an addiction for the past 20 years.

**Maddie** (3:15)
I'm married to a corn addict. He has struggled since he was eight years old. I make it like my mission to watch his every move, which is so draining.

**Oprah Winfrey** (3:23)
Maddie and Kyle, thank you for being here. I know this is a hard thing to talk about and I applaud your courage in being willing to speak about it because I hear this is really serious for a lot of people, like millions and millions of guys throughout the country and the world.
How long have you all been married?

**Maddie** (3:45)
We've been married six and a half years. So I would say like the last year is when I finally realized that like this addiction is so much deeper. And I'm like, how many times do I try to break the bad habit and I have to start over? And this is an addiction.

**Oprah Winfrey** (3:59)
Well, I know hearing Kyle and Maddie's story really hit home for a lot of people. Addiction to adult content is impacting millions of families and relationships.
My team just checked in with them. Kyle has had a relapse and set back at his recovery, he says, and is now doubling down on his addiction classes. And Maddie told us that they still love each other and they're going to continue to fight for their marriage. Dr. Anna Lembke is back with us and she's a Psychiatrist and Chief of Stanford Addiction Medicine. And I just truly believe that her book is a must read. It's called Dopamine Nation, Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence. Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Lembke. Thank you.