The Philosopher CEO | Clay Co-Founder Kareem Amin

**Kareem Amin** (0:00)
I was like, I'm doing what I think is interesting. And I hope that is aligned with what makes Clay successful. I'm interested in that. But actually, I want to make these people successful. And they felt that genuineness. And we did really crazy, you know, Varun, I think he was talking to someone on WhatsApp, and the person was having trouble fixing something on Clay. And he was like, I'm coming over to your house right now. And the guy was like, don't come. He was like, no, I'm coming. And they became really good friends. And we were just kind of on that journey with them truly.

**Brian Halligan** (0:48)
Hey, everybody, we have Kareem, the founder CEO of ClayOn today. Clay is ripping. He's doing a nice job there. He is a very interesting cat. You're about to find out he's kind of a philosopher, monk like CEO, and he's coloring way outside the lines. I think you're going to like it.
I did a bunch of work to prep, but the best prep was I got a little chance to engage with Varun, your head to go to market. And he said, he talked about your Padel game, that you guys play a lot of Padel, and he says he absolutely crushes you.

**Kareem Amin** (1:24)
He loses quite a bit.

**Brian Halligan** (1:26)
And he said, you're relentless and positive, and no one tries harder. Where does that come from?

**Kareem Amin** (1:36)
I just want to correct the record before we move on.

**Brian Halligan** (1:39)
I'm going to call BS on his behalf.

**Kareem Amin** (1:41)
Yeah, I have a video of him lying on the floor, literally with his ankle almost broken because he thought the ball was going one way and it went the other, and it just messed with his mind.

**Brian Halligan** (1:53)
He said, you guys wager and the wagers increase and you're like, let's go again, let's go again.

**Kareem Amin** (1:58)
Well, I think maybe what he's talking about is that I, especially in sports or things like that, when someone beats me in something, I automatically get charged up rather than charged down. Sometimes I'm playing actually with Varun against someone else and if we lose, he wants to change teams, which really baffles me.
That actually really gets to me because when I lose, especially in a game where you're losing by just one or two points, and you can almost see it going your way, I can see that difference and how close we were and how we can get there next time. Whereas he thinks it's less fun and we should switch teams.

**Brian Halligan** (2:40)
Where does that come from? Little Kareem, where did you get so competitive? Where does the drive come from?

**Kareem Amin** (2:48)
Well, that's a deep cut.

**Brian Halligan** (2:49)
Yeah, let's go.

**Kareem Amin** (2:50)
You really went there.

**Brian Halligan** (2:53)
I'm studying CEOs and I want to see what are the patterns.

**Kareem Amin** (2:56)
Yeah.

**Brian Halligan** (2:57)
A lot of CEOs are immigrants. Is it an immigrant edge?

**Kareem Amin** (3:01)
I'll tell you where I've gotten to after thinking about that or analyzing it.
It sounds a bit banal, but I think I had a unusual childhood, let's just say, just like parents divorced, both really great parents, just big divorce and traveling across different countries, very loud, lots of things happening. And my introspection is that the ambition comes from the, if you, like a really simple thing, if you can do something really big, then you will be loved.
And a big part actually of while building the company that I feel like I've come to understand, but also resolve and calm down, is that one thing that I've actually told people at work is that a lot of people think you should build from a place of lack, or like you have a chip on your shoulder, you need to prove something. And you can definitely build great things that way, but I think you create a lot of damage along the way. And to me, I've decided to create from a place of wholeness. So I'm like, I don't need anything. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm already loved by myself and others. And I don't need to prove anything. So to me, it's actually more of a game. And that's why I like often kind of talk about having fun or just like how to enjoy the process because it's actually your life. And otherwise, you're in this like, you know, just in the nightmare scenario in your head trying to prove something and doing so many things in the world.