The Narcissism Doctor: "1 In 6 People Are Narcissists!", "Are Narcissists Better In Bed?", "Can A Narcissist Change? - Dr. Ramani Durvasula

Ramani Durvasula (0:00)

We believe one in six people are narcissistic and exposure can become a life or death situation. But the key step to identify narcissism is Dr. Ramani Durvasula, licensed clinical psychologist, the world's leading expert on narcissism. All narcissism is on the spectrum. At the lowest ends, it's Instagram saviors. But the severe end of the spectrum, you're talking about a cult leader. They have low empathy. They will dominate people. They have to get the last word. They get angry very quickly. And that's just the top of the iceberg.

Steven Bartlett (0:33)

What about the impacts of narcissism on relationships?

Ramani Durvasula (0:36)

Narcissistic people, they can go out in the world and they're able to be charming and charismatic. And narcissistic relationships start strong. They want to get you quick. And then it becomes dismissiveness, manipulation, gaslighting. The world thinks this person's fantastic. A lot of people say, aren't you lucky that you're married to that guy? And behind closed doors, they psychologically destroy you.

Steven Bartlett (0:59)

Narcissism in work. How do I know if my boss is a narcissist?

Ramani Durvasula (1:03)

You're going to feel it in the sense of you don't feel seen, you don't feel valued, you feel like the workplace is unpredictable. You might even feel that it's psychologically unsafe.

Steven Bartlett (1:12)

What about world leaders? If our adversary in another country is a narcissist, would we rather our leader be a narcissist as well?

Ramani Durvasula (1:19)

That's a fantastic question. And I think...

Steven Bartlett (1:22)

So the big question, how do you know if you are a narcissist? And can you cure narcissism?

Ramani Durvasula (1:29)

So here's where we get into some interesting muddy waters.

Steven Bartlett (1:41)

Dr. Ramani, you've committed so much of your life and your energy to the subject of narcissism. Why does it matter?

Ramani Durvasula (1:50)

Oh, it matters so much because exposure to people who have narcissistic personalities shapes how people's identity develops, shapes how their personality develops, or if the first time you encounter a narcissistic person is in adulthood, it can actually sort of hijack that sense of identity. It can really steal a person away from themselves. And we, I think it's so important because we haven't given ourselves permission, I think as a culture, as a field of mental health, to identify this as a problem and allow people to have better responses. In a way, it's almost viewed as sort of not being very nice to say, the narcissistic people are not very nice. It's a strange paradox in the world of mental health. That's why I do it because nothing more than me wanting to return people back to their authentic selves.

Steven Bartlett (2:43)

You must have seen the cost of narcissism. Can you give me some examples of the cost that a narcissist has had on someone's life that you've seen?

Ramani Durvasula (2:52)

No. Where do I begin? I'll tell you, cost is a person who so doesn't believe in themselves that they may give up on their path of education and never pursue an interest. So we never got to see the work product that that would have created, not to mention that person actually getting to unfurl their wings and fully be who they wanted to be as a creative or as a professional. It's the person who knew what they wanted to be, that they had a very strong identity as pick something. And they ended up choosing something else because they knew the only way they could be loved was to be what that parent demanded of them. And it was so clear to them, they wouldn't be loved unless they fully gave in to what that parent expected of them. It's the person who was an absolutely glorious human being, lovely, empathic, and warm, but feels so damaged after years of being told, you're not enough, you're selfish, you're greedy, you're foolish, that they get into relationship after relationship that duplicates that theme and don't get the real collaborative, compassionate love story that they deserve because they don't think they deserve it. And that's just the top of the iceberg.

Steven Bartlett (4:07)

And your academic background, the experience that you're drawing from, what is that experience?

Ramani Durvasula (4:13)

So my experience in my academic background is I have a PhD in clinical psychology and my minor is in something called health psychology. And so I got really interested in how various elements of mental health and mental illness showed up in people who had co-occurring medical conditions. So it's a very almost like strange point to enter. But what we do know is people, personality affects how we take care of our health, how we might engage in behaviors that might put our health at risk. For example, narcissism and addiction have a really high overlap. So here's a case of now a personality style putting a person at health risk due to using substances to regulate and then all the things that would come of that. But it's tough to measure personality, Steven. It's really hard to measure. It's not one of those things. It's not like a blood test. It's not even like measuring depression. Frankly, depression is eminently measurable. Yeah, there's different variants and there's different severity. But we're very clear diagnostically and phenomenologically, what makes depression, what qualifies. Personalities like the Wild West. And so from a research perspective, it's something that people would often shy away from because we couldn't get the constructs right.