The hierarchy of engagement | Sarah Tavel (Benchmark, Greylock, Pinterest)

**Sarah Tavel** (0:00)
I think a lot of people think about markets almost like these bodies of water.
You know, it's like, oh, it's this big body of water that we're going after. And I actually think that the most interesting markets, you have to think of them like currents, where you're just trying to, there's something happening in the market that's creating this current, where you can have like a plank of wood that you put on the river, and it's gonna pull you forward versus a market that doesn't really have that momentum to it. You're gonna have to build like something really big and fancy to make any progress. And that's why we care less about market size, because really what you're looking for when you're looking at a market, or what are the dynamics of change? What's the current momentum that's gonna pull the company, and make the job easier for the founders to actually build something that endures.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:56)
Today, my guest is Sarah Tavel. Sarah is a partner at Benchmark, one of the most preeminent venture capital funds in the world, where she focuses on investing in consumer and marketplace startups. Prior to Benchmark, Sarah was the first product manager at Pinterest.
And though I normally have a policy against VCs on the podcast, as you'll see, Sarah thinks very much like a product and growth leader. And I always learn a ton talking to Sarah about startups and marketplaces.
We also learned in our conversation she used to play rugby and was apparently one of the best tacklers in her league. In our conversation, we unpack two of Sarah's killer frameworks for building a startup. One, the hierarchy of engagement, which is an incredibly useful lens for trying to figure out how to grow and scale your consumer startup. And then the hierarchy of marketplaces, which is an incredibly useful guide for helping you build your marketplace startup. If you're building a consumer startup or a marketplace, this episode is for you. We get really nerdy and really deep, just the way I like it. With that, I bring you Sarah Tavel, after a short word from our sponsor.
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Sarah, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

**Sarah Tavel** (3:11)
Super excited to be here.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (3:13)
So you may or may not know this, but actually normally have a policy of no VCs on the podcast, but you're a very special VC because you're a former product manager. Many people don't know you're the first product manager at Pinterest.
And to me, you still think like a product manager. And so I'm very excited to break my rule and have you on the podcast.

**Sarah Tavel** (3:31)
Thank you for the exception.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (3:33)
What I wanna do with our time together is dig into two frameworks that you've developed and use with founders that you work with to help them build successful companies. One is focused around consumer businesses and one marketplace businesses. So let's just start with the first framework. I think you call it the hierarchy of engagement.
Just to start, could you maybe just share a broad overview of this framework and also just where it emerged from, where you kind of came up with this concept?

**Sarah Tavel** (4:03)
So I think one thing you'll notice about me is that I have an allergic reaction to vanity metrics. What people talk about is vanity metrics.
And when I made the transition from Pinterest, where I was leading product for the discovery team, so I was responsible for all the discovery surfaces on Pinterest, the home feed, the search, the recommendations, a couple other teams. And ultimately what those teams were about was about kind of engagement, increasing engagement of Pinterest. It was helping people when they were on Pinterest find something that they loved enough that they wanted to pin it to one of their boards.