The Evolutionary Psychology Of Human Morality - Rob Kurzban - #796

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Rob Kurzban. He's a psychologist and an author. What is morality? Why did it come about? Have humans always had it? Is it a universal or temporary phenomenon? Does it exist as a truth independent of humanity, or is it entirely contingent on our culture? Expect to learn the evolutionary psychology of abortion policy, where the evolution of morality came from, the best examples of modern moral rules that you might not think about, the biggest issues with being a moral hypocrite, the role that reputation plays in judging someone's morality, how wisdom can help us overcome our biological hardware, and much more. This is so good, so much fun. Classic Modern Wisdom episode, deep into human nature, uncovering why things are the way they are. I absolutely adored this episode. Rob's great, awesome insights, really, really helps to kind of unpick and make visible the things that we assume about the way that the world and social groups and our own psychology works. It's just so great. I really, really enjoyed this one, and I hope that you do too. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business, from the launch your online shop stage to the first real life store stage, all the way to the, did we just hit a million orders stage? Shopify is there to help you grow. Whether you're selling scented soap or offering outdoor outfits, Shopify helps you sell everywhere, from that all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system, wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify has got you covered. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. You would be amazed at how many massive brands you love use Shopify. Gymshark, perhaps one of the biggest independent sportswear companies in the world uses Shopify, and if it is good enough for them, it is good enough for you. So if you are looking to get started at selling something online, Shopify is the easiest, quickest and most convenient way to do it. Plus you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase, that's shopify.com/modernwisdom, to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. I've been loving my cold plunge and sauna from the team over at Plunge. I literally use them every single week because the benefits of hot and cold contrast therapy make me feel fantastic. I have more energy during the day, sleep better at night and recover faster after hard workouts. Plunge's Evolve collection includes four brand new offerings made to fit your lifestyle, space and goals. The new Plunge Pure Pro Chiller uses state of the art technology to filter water and chill it at the same time. The all new Plunge Air is amazing if you're looking for a lightweight, space efficient option, you can connect it to the Plunge pop up for maximum portability and affordability, or go with the XL Plunge Pro for their signature style. They are quick to set up and always ready to go. It only takes three minutes to feel amazing. That's how long I spend in it. And they offer a 30 day return policy. Head to plunge.com/modernwisdom and use the code MW150 for $150 off any purchase. That's plunge.com/modernwisdom and MW150. A checkout. It's important to me that the supplements I take are of the highest quality and that's why for over three years now I have been drinking AG1. Taking care of your health should not be complicated and AG1 simplifies this by covering all of your nutritional bases and setting yourself up to success in just 60 seconds per day. Their ingredients are heavily researched for efficacy and quality and I love that every single scoop also includes prebiotics, probiotics and digestive enzymes for gut support. I've partnered with AG1 for so long because they make the highest quality product that I genuinely look forward to drinking every day. So if you want to replace your multivitamin and more, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a year's free supply of vitamin D3 and K2 plus five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription at www.drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's www.drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.
But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Rob Kurzban.
Talk to me about the evolutionary psychology of abortion policy.

**Robert Kurzban** (4:34)
Yeah, so a lot of people think that where your abortions come from is like your philosophy in life. And I know you've sort of thought a lot about people's philosophies. And so we all live by these kind of, you know, really high level ethics and so on. But what we've argued is that what you really want to do is look at where people's interests lie, right? So the evolutionary view points to genetic interests, fitness interests. And so we sort of had this idea, this is a collaboration with my former colleague, Jason Whedon, that said, well, maybe what's really going on here is that if you think about abortion as a tool that people could use to have a relatively promiscuous lifestyle, right? So the cost of making a mistake, if you want to put it that way, is relatively low as long as there's abortion services. So maybe what's really going on is people who want to live a lifestyle in which they can have a sexual strategy, which is maybe a little bit more promiscuous and so on, that they're going to be in favor of it. And the other way too, right? So if you've got people who are living a monogamous lifestyle, what you really don't want is your partner to be tempted to stray. And one way that you could deter them is by making that behavior costly. So I should say, I was very skeptical of this explanation when I first heard it. So we gathered a lot of data and it was surprising to me. It turns out that people who have views, which kind of comport with that strategy, who are kind of monogamous, they tend to be opposed to abortion services and the reverse. So what's really going on here is that people are sort of using favoring abortion as a way to get the policies in place that advances their reproductive interests. So it sounds very cynical. It would be great if everyone just had a set of principles which they live by. I mean, if anything, in the last 10 years, if they've shown us anything is that principles go out the window as soon as people's interests are involved. And so that's basically the idea is that if you want to understand people's kind of moral commitments, the first place you want to look is not to their overarching principles, but you want to look at where their fitness interests lie.