The End of Endless Growth: Should We Put the Brakes on Economic Expansion? (Kate Raworth)

**Amol Rajan** (0:00)
So, just before we start, I just want to let you know that next week, I will be speaking to Shiv Malik. He's a journalist who wrote a book called The Jilted Generation, where he argues that stagnant wages, increasingly unaffordable homes, have robbed a generation of Britons of their future. But he's now got a huge and very radical idea about, well, something you could do to fix some of these issues. He has this extraordinary ambition, which is that the UK should do something, it's not done for 60 years, which is build a massive brand new city. The Vision is one of skyscrapers and 400,000 affordable new homes surrounded by trees in East Anglia, in what he's calling Forest City.
It's a big idea. It's a bold idea. Is it balmy? Well, it's certainly radical. Could it happen? Well, you'll have to listen to the episode and find out. I know you're going to have lots and lots of questions. It could be about related issues, not just Forest City. It could be about the whole idea of urban planning and where our spirit of development has gone. Please do send them in, WhatsApp, 330 1239480, or you can email radical at bbc.co.uk. Now on to this week's episode.
Hello, it's Amol here. Welcome to Radical. These are conversations about the big global trends, the deep forces changing our world and offering a safe space for some radical ideas for the future. Last week, we celebrated our 50th guest, Ben and Jerry's Ben Cohen.
That was an ice cream heavy show. How about a round of doughnuts for our 51st? It is the economist, sustainability expert, and human rights activist Kate Raworth. She is the author of the best-selling book, Doughnut Economics, and she has helped reshape the debate about the ecological impact and the social good of modern economics. And she's done so in a very radical way indeed. Why a doughnut exactly? Well, think of two rings. The inner ring represents the minimum standards for human well-being and flourishing. Falling short of this leads to deprivation and poverty. The outer ring represents a kind of ecological ring, if you like, stuff like climate change, pollution, acidification, biodiversity loss. Exceed that ring and the planet is in big trouble. So don't worry if you don't get it. It's a very important idea. It's become very influential. Many of you have asked for us to invite Kate on and we've responded to your calls. The real expert is gonna take us through all of this in just a minute. It's worth saying that many of the guests on this podcast link the challenges in our world and their radical solutions to economic growth, or rather the lack of it. They say we need to stimulate growth, and make money to pay for things that will improve people's lives, public services and so on. What makes Kate Raworth different?
What makes her radical is that she wants to abandon or at least radically update the very idea of growth as a marker of economic success, and she thinks that growth for its own sake is economically and morally irresponsible. And I know, we know, that a lot of you may well agree with her. Before we begin, a quick reminder, if you subscribe to Radical on BBC Sounds, you won't miss future episodes, including a bonus Q&A, which is released every Monday. It's called Your Radical Questions, and indeed Kate Raworth is answering your radical questions. That will be out next Monday. Right. Onto this week's episode with the economist, author of Doughnut Economics, Kate Raworth.
Should we do this then, guys? We're happy. Happy enough for me to say hello and welcome to Radical Kate Raworth.

**Kate Raworth** (3:42)
Very glad to be here.

**Amol Rajan** (3:43)
Are you very glad to be here?

**Kate Raworth** (3:44)
Yeah, I am.

**Amol Rajan** (3:45)
I've got to tell you something. If we already tease this, I want you to know something, which is obviously everything I say is completely true. This is particularly true, Kate. Do you know that you are the most requested guest from our listeners?

**Kate Raworth** (3:56)
Wow.

**Amol Rajan** (3:56)
Your name more than of all the people in the world that they can request. They requested you. They want you more than anyone. You're here because we listen to them. I feel like there should be an award. Maybe you could have that mug.

**Kate Raworth** (4:07)
With your face on it. I would love this.

**Amol Rajan** (4:09)
You can have it. It's a gift. It's a gift as the most requested guest on Radical. I like a quiz as you may know. I've got a quiz question for you.