The case for male vulnerability with Luke Bateman

Luke Bateman (0:00)

When I talk about patriarchy, I talk about the socially-enforced mutilation of your internal world as a man, so.

Adam Grant (0:08)

That's a powerful phrase. Say that again.

Luke Bateman (0:11)

The socially-enforced mutilation of your internal world. And it happens so silently and invisibly.

Adam Grant (0:21)

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people who explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

I first learned about Luke Bateman from his Instagram posts about how patriarchy has hidden costs for men and boys. But his posts are eye-catching in more ways than one.

Sometimes he records from inside the cab of a tractor in rural Australia where he lives. He doesn't look like the kind of guy who would talk about his feelings. As a former pro rugby player, he's jacked. But appearances don't tell the full story.

Luke Bateman (1:01)

When I was playing as a professional rugby player, one of the toughest, strongest men in the world, that is the weakest that I have ever been.

Adam Grant (1:11)

Luke is massively popular on TikTok. He built his audience by posting about his love of fantasy and romantasy novels. In 2027, he'll publish his own debut fantasy novel. So we have a lot to talk about here.

I have a ton of questions for you, but the thing I want to ask you first is how did you go from being a professional rugby player to an outspoken book lover and feminist? That is not the typical arc.

Luke Bateman (1:43)

No, it's not at all.

That question comes with a very, very long story and I'll try to give you the shortest version possible. So growing up, I grew up in rural Queensland in Australia. I grew up on a farm surrounded by very blue collar rural men. I was always such a massive nerd growing up. I was always a geek. I was very soft. I was very kind and that was never reflected in the world around me. So I always felt really weird growing up and I played a lot of rugby and I was fortunate enough to become professional at that. But this whole time, I kind of lived these two different lives where I had the public version of me which was the big, strong rugby player and then the at-home version of me, which was the soft fantasy reader.

I was living my dream. I was a 21-year-old on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, playing professional rugby, living my absolute dream, and I was the unhappiest that I've ever been. So I fell into addiction and depression and I had a really, really dark, hard season of life while I was playing rugby.

And I ended up in rehab and had to go through a recovery, a lot of 12-step meetings for my addiction. And through that whole process, I read lots of books, lots of psychology books, lots of self-development books. And I started doing it because I wanted to, I just wanted to save my own life from addiction and depression and suicide, etc. And through that process, I really started discovering the narratives, the conditioning, the ideologies that shaped me without me even knowing about them. And I started to learn about all the systems and the cultures and the narratives that I grew up within. And through that process, I just ended up being where I am, you know, very outspoken around mental health, around patriarchy, around male conditioning, narratives, shame, all those kinds of things. And when we use the word feminist, I also want to caveat this, like I absolutely am a feminist, but I haven't done any of that groundwork in feminism. Like there are women out there who have been doing it for decades. You know, there are so many strong, competent, capable women that have been groundbreaking in that area. And so I am very much just a benefactor of all of their hard work. I don't speak for women, I speak with women.

Adam Grant (4:07)

Well said. So I want to talk about feminism and masculinity. I also want to talk about books. Where do you want to go first?

Luke Bateman (4:16)

Mate, wherever you want. I'm happy to follow this ship anywhere.

Adam Grant (4:19)

Let's start on the gender front, because I think you just teed it up effectively. I think that's how I first discovered you was you'd recorded a series of videos about masculinity. And it was surprising, first of all, I didn't expect somebody who looks like you to be talking about the sort of the shame of what I think about in psychology is precarious manhood. My read of the precarious manhood evidence is it's a better version of what people are trying to get at when they use the phrase toxic masculinity. And I hear toxic masculinity. And I think you've immediately alienated most men by saying being a man is toxic.